Mercurysteam's Hangout
BARRACKS => Gameplay Feedback => Topic started by: Power Penguin on April 20, 2018, 01:58:52 AM
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Have fun getting one shotted when playing antag.
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Harec, Doldren, and Shae (and every other character with their grab) can all 1-shot as well? I don't understand the arguments against one-shots when there are so many of them, unless you want them all removed completely.
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Harec, Doldren, and Shae (and every other character with their grab) can all 1-shot as well? I don't understand the arguments against one-shots when there are so many of them, unless you want them all removed completely.
Well that's kinda their role in the game but they offset this by having low hp values. Also their weapons are not super effective at close range. Giny has great health, great mobility and a 1 shot weapon that she can use at close or long range if you don't call that borked I don't know what is.
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I was about to say what you said. Also you have to be close to grab and risk a lot more than shooting with the Schleuder. I think it's a bit too powerful to. Herec, Shae and Doldren also have stipulations on their weapons that prevent them from spamming (well the high damage ones, anyways), like one shot per reload with Harec, slow "reload" letting the pressure out with Shae which she can't do ANYTHING but walk while she does this, and it lasts a bit of time, and finally Doldren has to wait a moment for his gun to fire max damage and then only the first shot keeps his stress down.
I don't think one shots are the problem Draco, I think it's how EASY they may or may not be, the sacrifice a character has to make to do them and the relative weakness of that hero to justify the one shot. Ginebra, has no weaknesses with the Schleuder. At 100 health, resistant to gunfire damage, and the ability to go 0 to 60 in a split second, she is one of the best, if not THE best, character in the game.
EDIT: Also consider her other two weapons which ar balanced relative to her Health, resistance and mobility well. Default does crab damage but has push and does additional damage if they colide with other stuff. And Javalin does HORRIBLE damage up close and only "decent" damage afar, but only at max tension. With Shleuder you just have to shoot the ground in front of your target.
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While I agree that Ginebra is a character that should be nerfed since she can do pretty much everything measurable, I would not call the Schleuder particularly easy to 1-shot with. It requires bouncing, you can't just shoot straight on and do much damage. I have not yet gotten that good with the weapon myself, it has potential for high damage but still takes skill (or luck) to land those bounce shots.
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I was about to say what you said. Also you have to be close to grab and risk a lot more than shooting with the Schleuder. I think it's a bit too powerful to. Herec, Shae and Doldren also have stipulations on their weapons that prevent them from spamming (well the high damage ones, anyways), like one shot per reload with Harec, slow "reload" letting the pressure out with Shae which she can't do ANYTHING but walk while she does this, and it lasts a bit of time, and finally Doldren has to wait a moment for his gun to fire max damage and then only the first shot keeps his stress down.
I don't think one shots are the problem Draco, I think it's how EASY they may or may not be, the sacrifice a character has to make to do them and the relative weakness of that hero to justify the one shot. Ginebra, has no weaknesses with the Schleuder. At 100 health, resistant to gunfire damage, and the ability to go 0 to 60 in a split second, she is one of the best, if not THE best, character in the game.
EDIT: Also consider her other two weapons which ar balanced relative to her Health, resistance and mobility well. Default does crab damage but has push and does additional damage if they colide with other stuff. And Javalin does HORRIBLE damage up close and only "decent" damage afar, but only at max tension. With Shleuder you just have to shoot the ground in front of your target.
Don't forget that the projectiles are also slower for these weapons.
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While I agree that Ginebra is a character that should be nerfed since she can do pretty much everything measurable, I would not call the Schleuder particularly easy to 1-shot with. It requires bouncing, you can't just shoot straight on and do much damage. I have not yet gotten that good with the weapon myself, it has potential for high damage but still takes skill (or luck) to land those bounce shots.
It really isn't that hard to use just aim at their feet and do SUPER DAMAGE !!!!!!!
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While I agree that Ginebra is a character that should be nerfed since she can do pretty much everything measurable, I would not call the Schleuder particularly easy to 1-shot with. It requires bouncing, you can't just shoot straight on and do much damage. I have not yet gotten that good with the weapon myself, it has potential for high damage but still takes skill (or luck) to land those bounce shots.
The weapon literally tells you when to shoot, it goes red and you can basically one shot people from around the corner this way. Other heroes with "bounce" weapons have to guess. The other weapons are crossbows as well so the aim goes slightly off each time you fire, the Schleuder is not a crossbow, it some kind of gun so it's always straight and doesn't go off target after you fire. The other two are slower and have an arc whee they fall off, Schleuder is straight.
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Super space tennis ball launcher.
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Upgraded, a single bounce gets me sub-200 damage, somewhere in the upper 100's. Shooting at feet still requires positioning on both the shooter and the target.
It is a strong weapon, but when compared to other high damage weapons, it sounds like you guys take issue with the rest of Ginebra's kit. Which I can agree with. But then we come back to weapon nerfing, after already admitting all of the other strengths she has. Jetpack was a mobility perk that got nerfed, but cat form remains infinite. If she had more trouble positioning herself at-will, perhaps it would not be as effective. It gets neutered against an opponent on the high ground, you can't make that easy foot shot in such a position.
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Upgraded, a single bounce gets me sub-200 damage, somewhere in the upper 100's. Shooting at feet still requires positioning on both the shooter and the target.
It is a strong weapon, but when compared to other high damage weapons, it sounds like you guys take issue with the rest of Ginebra's kit. Which I can agree with. But then we come back to weapon nerfing, after already admitting all of the other strengths she has. Jetpack was a mobility perk that got nerfed, but cat form remains infinite. If she had more trouble positioning herself at-will, perhaps it would not be as effective. It gets neutered against an opponent on the high ground, you can't make that easy foot shot in such a position.
There's nothing wrong with the gun, by itself. You can have a gun that does 1,000 damage AoE in 10 feet of the hero firing, but if the hero walks at half speed, has 2 health, and no armor it balances things out.
The gun is too powerful in conjunction with the hero who wields it. There are other heroes that can one shot, but they have weaknesses. Gin doesn't have any, so her other two weapons balance her well, while Shleuder is OP, in HER hands. If Harec or Sha had the Shleuder it wouldn't be so bad.
I don't think they should Nerf Ginebra because she's too fun to play, they should instead nerf the gun.
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Upgraded, a single bounce gets me sub-200 damage, somewhere in the upper 100's. Shooting at feet still requires positioning on both the shooter and the target.
It is a strong weapon, but when compared to other high damage weapons, it sounds like you guys take issue with the rest of Ginebra's kit. Which I can agree with. But then we come back to weapon nerfing, after already admitting all of the other strengths she has. Jetpack was a mobility perk that got nerfed, but cat form remains infinite. If she had more trouble positioning herself at-will, perhaps it would not be as effective. It gets neutered against an opponent on the high ground, you can't make that easy foot shot in such a position.
Ginebra has great positioning potential with her power so the high ground advantage can quickly dissipate as to your other point even if you miss your fist shot with the Schleuder she can very quickly follow up. Sure it might be below 200 damage per shot but the rate you can put down tennis balls down range is also a factor.
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Upgraded, a single bounce gets me sub-200 damage, somewhere in the upper 100's. Shooting at feet still requires positioning on both the shooter and the target.
It is a strong weapon, but when compared to other high damage weapons, it sounds like you guys take issue with the rest of Ginebra's kit. Which I can agree with. But then we come back to weapon nerfing, after already admitting all of the other strengths she has. Jetpack was a mobility perk that got nerfed, but cat form remains infinite. If she had more trouble positioning herself at-will, perhaps it would not be as effective. It gets neutered against an opponent on the high ground, you can't make that easy foot shot in such a position.
There's nothing wrong with the gun, by itself. You can have a gun that does 1,000 damage AoE in 10 feet of the hero firing, but if the hero walks at half speed, has 2 health, and no armor it balances things out.
The gun is too powerful in conjunction with the hero who wields it. There are other heroes that can one shot, but they have weaknesses. Gin doesn't have any, so her other two weapons balance her well, while Shleuder is OP, in HER hands. If Harec or Sha had the Shleuder it wouldn't be so bad.
I don't think they should Nerf Ginebra because she's too fun to play, they should instead nerf the gun.
I agree. I'd rather have a weapon nerf than a character nerf.
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I don't think they should Nerf Ginebra because she's too fun to play
I mean, I felt that way about Hans, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least he got some good cards to balance it out, that help eliminate or reduce that crazy long refuel time.
*In general*, nerfs to the players are not fun for the players. I do not enjoy the 5th council armor nerf that we got with Hades one damn bite. Ginebra has no weaknesses as admitted by everyone here, but that's OK.
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I don't think they should Nerf Ginebra because she's too fun to play
I mean, I felt that way about Hans, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least he got some good cards to balance it out, that help eliminate or reduce that crazy long refuel time.
*In general*, nerfs to the players are not fun for the players. I do not enjoy the 5th council armor nerf that we got with Hades one damn bite. Ginebra has no weaknesses as admitted by everyone here, but that's OK.
Giny as a character is super fun my only real problem is the Schlueder.
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I don't think they should Nerf Ginebra because she's too fun to play
I mean, I felt that way about Hans, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least he got some good cards to balance it out, that help eliminate or reduce that crazy long refuel time.
*In general*, nerfs to the players are not fun for the players. I do not enjoy the 5th council armor nerf that we got with Hades one damn bite. Ginebra has no weaknesses as admitted by everyone here, but that's OK.
Well with Hans it the problem was apparent because he was OP regardless of the weapon he used. So this clearly pointed to the character needing the nerf. I didn't agree that BOTH should have been though. They should bring his weapon values back up since they nerfed his jet pack.
The difference with Gin was that we can CLEARLY see she's NOT overpowered with her default gun and Javelin, but then when she gets the Schleuder she becomes OP, this would mean the problem is the weapon and that the weapon needs to be nerfed.
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I think it's all because Ginebra is last character you get so there's lot of myths about how super cool she is from poeple who hasn't even used her themselves. I got her, tried her and hated her. She is slow, her weapons are slow and running away from mobs in cat form doesn't solve the problem that you still need to kill them. Ginebra is easiest character from 5th council to swarm and can be ounched and grappled in her cat form.
If you have to fight Ginebra antagonist, all you have to remember - don't run in straigth line towards the antagonist when he aims at you. He will miss his 1st shot, start to freak out and miss the rest of them.
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I think it's all because Ginebra is last character you get so there's lot of myths about how super cool she is from poeple who hasn't even used her themselves. I got her, tried her and hated her. She is slow, her weapons are slow and running away from mobs in cat form doesn't solve the problem that you still need to kill them. Ginebra is easiest character from 5th council to swarm and can be ounched and grappled in her cat form.
If you have to fight Ginebra antagonist, all you have to remember - don't run in straigth line towards the antagonist when he aims at you. He will miss his 1st shot, start to freak out and miss the rest of them.
Ginebra is my favorite Rider...and Black
he's absolutely right ... so many times they nailed me like that ... and like all riders they have strengths and weaknesses ...
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Nah, Shleuder needs a nerf.
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There is not a good way to Balance Schleder and keep it useful. It needs to do its crazy damage, or it's garbage. Hah. I love it, but it is STRONG antag gun, the problem being that adds have more health than raiders, and if it can't one shot a raider then it is absolute garbage.
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There is not a good way to Balance Schleder and keep it useful. It needs to do its crazy damage, or it's garbage. Hah. I love it, but it is STRONG antag gun, the problem being that adds have more health than raiders, and if it can't one shot a raider then it is absolute garbage.
The way I would nerf it would be to lower the straight damage further, to draw it more in line with the Javelin. Make the Schleuder damage the same as the Javelin damage up close and the "ricochet" damage the same as Javelin at far range. If these values are good enough for the Javelin they're good enough for the Shleuder.
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The only part of Schlueder that really needs to be nerfed is the light up aiming reticule when your shot will hit. That turns zeros to heros. One step away from auto aim. If you're going up against a host with schlueder there's next to nothing you can do because they always hit. If the gun took more skill to aim it wouldn't be as much of a problem.
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The only problem with that is incredibly unpredictable texture physics.
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The only problem with that is incredibly unpredictable texture physics.
I'm okay with the line for aiming. Just the fact that it changes colors when your shot is lined up makes it too easy.
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That's a very good idea. Take away the "red" indicator and make them have to aim like everyone else and EARN that high damage. I could live with this.
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The color is easily abused once you know how it works. Ha. But I am totally cool with just blue beam no red.
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If you nerf it without adding something to balance it you are going to make the weapon completely useless. Not to mention making Ginebra useless as antagonist aswell vs antagonist. Its cool to run in cougar form but as stated above it does not solve the actual problem of having to kill the enemies. In fact is quite a disadvantage not being able to run, not having somehting to repeal enemies in CQC and your only mobility form does not allow hitting back. Alicia can corner you pretty easily with her ability.
The default weapon is really shitty, it should have a buff. Maybe faster tension and 2 additional shots.
If you get caught by an anta or player in CQC with the Javelin you are fried. Not to mention you can actually see and evade the projectiles. They are quite visible and slow.
It is even difficult to finish them off with it! As crazy damage as it does, many times I have found myself shooting them on down state and they just dont die nor do they get pushed.
Schleuder has a hard time against flying Hans, other 5th council and even some Mikas. Even Lycus can become a problem.
Perhaps making the straight shot do 10 damage and buff a little bit the ricochets. Perhaps even reducing the capacity to 3 or 4 shots. Overheating like Shae's rifle (including the inability to hit, roll or run) could be an option as well. Make it noisy so you know when she is vulnerable. Try to shoot something that is on the air with it is so damn difficult! Even enemies jumping are hard to hit by the Schleuder.
Finally there is a big gap in between shots, maybe it doesnt feel like it but when you are shooting at an enemy coming straight at you it feels so slow and the closer they are the less ricochets you can score on them. Oddly enough it also sucks in long distance engagements. It does poor damage in a straight line and from a distance is hard to make a second ricochet.
It may seem op in corners, hallways and the occasional crazy damage that does on a 3rd or 4th ricochet but apart from that not only is not op but it shows how her 2 other weapons are really weak.
Hopefully this will lead to a faster release of another weapon for her!
Btw, the color thing is not a sure way of getting a hit, they can still move out of the way if you are far enough. Not to mention the actual hit of the projectile is really tiny.
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I've taken plenty of shots on red and missed, due to travel time not hitscan.
I would like to see this laser put on Hornet, tbh, since they are both marketed as ricochet guns but I can't hit shit with bounce shots on it.
Also 4nal posted as I was about to, agree with that post. When I use Ginebra, I don't feel like some OP unstoppable god like this thread suggests. Strong, yes, OP, no.
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Admittedly, I've never used schluder myself so my opinions are a little one sided. I just know I feel like a schlueder player can usually get me before I have a chance to do anything, it's usually only bad against a host with schlueder. Dedicated servers could solve a lot of problems lol. But that's a different topic.
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I still think it does too much damage considering it's a 100 health 5th council that can escape whenever she wants. Again, compare it to the other heroes that one shot, as stated above.
If she COULDN'T escape then the argument for swarming her would make sense, but it doesn't, she can just run away. And running away DOES solve a lot of issues as antag, you stay alive and they have to exert effort concentrating on you rather than the mission. Even if they DIDN'T kill you but you are harassing them and not dying this allows more adds to spawn, more time to tick, more phases for the boss to occur, more damage to escort, etc... I mean, she can do this anyways, but the added threat of a one hit kill is a bit much for someone outside of the Alien (worry "locals") faction.
Again, keep the damage the same, just make Ginebra antags EARN the damage by removing the red indicator, keep the blue line, remove the red light up. Otherwise nerf the damage if you're going to keep the red indicator.
EDIT: It's important to note that you CANNOT take cover from this weapon. And that even being out in the open is a death sentence, she just has to shoot the ground in front of you. Other characters that can one shot you have the option of taking cover, or just killing them since they only have 60 health and very little escape.
I've been on the receiving end of an antag with a Schleuder and there felt like there was VERY little we could do, we were at the complete mercy of the antag. Unless we had a very skilled sniper of another Gin with the Schleuder.
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Other issue we are not considering is SKILL. Yes it is way easier to just spam, therefore Schleuder FEELS OP but just get it, try it and you will se how is not a 10/10 weapon I would give it a 7 in that scale.
Is much more frightening to face a seasoned harec. Almost non existing stress (with aura mortis it doesnt even reveal where he is while he shoots). It can actually one shot people from ANY angle. Teletransportation which can be used for attack and sort of defense. Munnition wise is much more effective. Can shoot people while airborne rather easy. Just go and shoot down an Alicia or a Hans with Scheluder and then with any Harec rifle, you can even one hit a Hans in flight quite easily it doesnt even need to be a headshot. On the other hand with schleuder its quite hard.
Whenever you get one or two hits he is still at half health right in front of you. 5th council doesnt reduce melee damage, she gets an initial blow and then its almost over for her yeah you can guess his next move but is quite 50/50. I have seen lots of Ginebras getting owned in cqc by Hans that way. If there is a cheeselord in this game is Hans.
Yes, Schleuder could be considered a solid 8 in a decent player hands. But take in consideration that it takes a while to unlock Ginebra and then the weapon. There is no skill ceiling is just one pony trick. On the other hand default Harec sucks for beginners I give you that BUT once you understand the game it is a freaking nightmare. I still have virtual PTSD from an anta Harec on Breath of Hope. That unlimited range he had while sticking to the ceiling! It was just a freaking Vasiilli Zaitsev on aleph, dropping bodies left and right (and that gesture in which he bows in a very arrogant "nice try n00bs" kind of way, seals the deal). That default weapon can become a 20+ it has POTENTIAL, scheluder its good in general but has lots of issues, just as Ginebra.
With her weapons the noise is just a dead giveaway (slow travel, avoidable, not one hit kills most of the time) With Harec you only see the trace of the bullet and your aleph deprived corpse next to it. Yes I get the point that it feels cheap, but she's quite limited strategy wise. Hans is 10 times cheaper and you know it mate, he has cheesed us hard.
Ginebra is annoying to get but very few times I have seen her scoring actual vital maneuvers. Is nice to have it against antagonist as she can hide and seek while Aleph resets but she doesnt win games single handedly...on the other hand those Hans with zero skill...well...
BTW with new level up system (I know is not applicable per se, nor a solution and its going to give nightmares to the balance team with upcoming builds) face an Alicia say around 80 with a Ginebra in 40 is not even funny, Ginebra feels like a local in that match up. Yeah its grindy and its not ideal by far but its another way you can get around some "bad" match ups.
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As someone who likes to play Antagonist, Ginebra has been a pain in my ass since her release. I complained about her on the forums a long time ago and nothing has changed. She still tilts me like no one else.
The Schlueder has exacerbated the problems with Ginebra and I now consider her to be a dominant character. At least on the Raider side (vs antagonists). Facing her and expecting to win as antagonist... Well, let's just say a lot of luck will be involved. Match-up matters too of course...
I think Ginebra needs a serious look-over balance wise.
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People who can use the Schleuder needs a nerf.
To be fair, It is a great gun, and you can avoid incoming damage while dealing damage..it's got -predictable- angles unlike the Hornet. That is why it is so good. Some people get a knack for it. Some people don't. There is some skill (not a lot mind you) in fast firing that weapon in a productive way.
Harec is good, but I don't like the Aura that was talked about earlier..too slow. Max crit from the Ferrox is better and you can melee out of the reload, which is important. Ignis being my personal favorite.
All the Konstantin guns are HEAVY damage when they hit hard...Pepper Pot. Rock and Roll. Everyone has this gun that can be catastrophic to antagonists. Do you think that the issue lies in the Ginebra investment? People who have her have some amount of experience with the game? I've beat my fair share of Schleuder's and I've lost some too. I'm more worried about the competent Konstantin than I am Ginebra. Ginebra is going to run away (more often than not) and that eliminates her dps, so the objective isn't being completed. It's a matter of cornering her in a place where she can't get through without taking damage if you're in that (2nd survive) or later.
I don't think she's an issue, because good players can deal with it. I will say that she ROLLS public games where there isn't a good amount of team work, but so does Doldren. And I consider Doldren near useless against a good team. Pretty great against individuals though.
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I have always felt that cat form, in a pvp setting, is much more broken than any weapon. I don't care that she has a strong weapon, that I'm not nearly as good with as some others who use her more (seriously you don't just pick up Schleuder and pump out 500+ dmg 3 bounce shots on the first day, you gotta practice and learn it which I still haven't mastered). I am more miffed that she has an EZ escape button to run out survive timers when I am an antag fighting her. There are very few counters to her just simply running down timers, and that is often the only way to win as antag-- completely murder the enemy team.
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Redacted. Hah
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So...wanna know the way to do this? Make it bounce an additional time and make the 1 bounce do the same damage as standard shot. :D Just feet shooting is dumb anyway. :D
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Well then the first bounce would be useless. I would just nerf the damage progression per bounce. For example, a direct line hit would do 50, first bounce should be 70-75, and second bounce would be 100 - 150.
These values pretty much just came out of my ass, so if you have better values, please share. I know it does WAY more damage right now on live.
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The First bounce should be useless. Exploiting that 140 dmg is why people hate it. Not necessarily for the three bounce crazy hits. Just shooting at the floor isn't hard, and the bounce is to reward skilled shooting. So again, just keep dmg as is, but make the first bounce same as 0 bounce.
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Ok, that's fine, but the reason the first bounce does more damage is because the initial damage is REALLY pathetic, it's like 40 or 50 with a poor RoF. If they made the first bounce not count then they would need to bring up the initial damage, just a tad. Probably to 80.
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I find it a bit strange that ppl are taking this claim seriously, the weapon is fine, it has some high potential damage but it’s not free, it takes practice, the environment and projectile speed is so slow, couple that with the times you’ll be in a game with high ping and have to do extra compensation… the weapon imo is fine.
Her feline form is also fine, you can’t regen, take more damage, plus the painfully long time it takes to get out of it and the fact grapples are pretty effective on her when transformed.
I would have expected most nerf posts on the official forums to be about Kuzman (the real broken character in this game) to my understanding he has been in the game for 6+ months, how has he not been nerfed? (or mayb he has idk, in which case I’m glad I wasn’t here for that lol) He trivializes entire encounters even with his default but if he uses the weapon that does continuous damage even after he’s stopped firing it goes into the absurd, not to mention he is as easy to use as Konstantin, just look in the general direction of what u want to kill and spray.
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I've seen you play...
You have some opinions I'm sure, but most of us know exactly how strong the shleuder is, and with the fire rate increases it is too much, because you can fire until they die.
Kuzzman has a pretty effective counter by just coordinating where you are.
Konstantin is not easy to play well. He is just solid dps, but there are some nuanced maneuvers to him.
Kuzzman can lock down certain maps. Just gotta counter pick him.