Mercurysteam's Hangout
BARRACKS => Gameplay Feedback => Topic started by: MetalBearRising on May 05, 2018, 10:42:52 PM
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So I'm currently lvl 43, I usually go Alicia against raiders and I'd say I win more antag matches than I lose. But twice now, I've come up against lvl 170+ raiders (a lycus and an alicia) and the damage output is ridiculous. If I even get grazed by one shot, I go straight into a downstate and become melee fodder. I accept that if I get in over my head as antag (1vs2/3/4) , I will probably die. That's what makes antag exhilarating. But if there is even one raider that I am guaranteed to lose against 1v1 every time (because I need to land three hits and he only needs to land one) what the hell am I supposed to do?
The damage bonus for level ups has to drop off at some point, otherwise high level players (who are already highly experienced) will be invincible.
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I'd recommend grabbing blueprints (easier said than done, I know) and increasing the PvP damage of your weapon of choice. Alicia isn't the best at taking direct damage, so stay mobile and in the air. Use the AI enemies to your advantage, wherever possible, and maybe try to pester lower level Raiders and steer clear of the level 170 players (again, wherever possible). That's really all you can do. Avoid the impulse to just throw yourself at the Raiders all slap-dash like. Whittle their Aleph down slowly and see if they panic when the refill timer starts counting down, and take advantage of that accordingly. On objective based maps, like the one where Loaht's fortress is under fire, or the old Protector is being escorted, all you really got to do is make yourself a big enough nuisance to cause them to fail. You don't have to worry about laying any hard smack down. You can literally just antagonize them, rolling along side the AI and keeping them from doing what they need to do.
You could also drop significant amounts of cash to purchase gold for XP boosts to double your XP after every match and level yourself up to 170 as well.
I mean...it's an option.
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Yeah, in the lycus match I was still able to win it because it was the old protector map.
I've currently got the upgraded RockNRoll for Alicia and unfortunately so did the enemy Alicia who was 130+ levels above me, so that's still a guaranteed loss.
I could drop money for xp boosts, but that's pretty much the definition of pay2win. I already slapped down the money for all the campaigns, so I feel like if there is going to be pvp (and god do I love the pvp), it should still be a reasonably even playing field when it comes to 1v1 match ups
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Yea I’ve been on both ends of this, it’s one of the reasons I don’t take the “pvp” in this game seriously, it would be like taking the pvp in BDO seriously…
I think a solution to this problem would be having stats from leveling and reconfiguring weapons only work against npc’s, for example the Hero killer weapon stat would only improves damage against elites and bosses not players, like u said get a level playing field going on.
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It's funny you should say this because right now there is a bug that causes the AI to become monstrously powerful when there is a large enough disparity between low level antagonist and high level raiders. It's so bad that you can AFK and the enemy AI will win the fight for you most of the time.
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We always come back to "no stat differences should apply against players in pvp but yes they should work on pve." And I keep saying: You can't do that, because then the antagonist would always be at a disadvantage. The raiders would have buffed stats to help them kill enemies super fast but antag would have no stats to help dispose of the Raiders. This would only be even slightly OK if the enemies kept their original health/AI/spawn rate even with an antagonist.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/368688552151875584/442755270733725697/a31.png)
like I was level 90 against a team no higher than level 15 once, and they kicked the hell out of me. I did pull a win out, but stats mean way less than complainers think. I got 1-shot so many times by Harec, Doldren, and Iune.... I thought they would be really easy and weak noobs so I ran Hive on Short Fused, and they made me work for my win. My stats didn't save me, I had to adapt my playstyle to deal with 1-shotters and Doldren grabbing my ass.
Stats are just the new scapegoat, like when we used to have antag ranks and people said "it's unfair to have a lv18 antag even have the chance to play against a player who is in their first mission." It's always something :-\ But in ANY pvp game there will be discrepancies. I have played games with noobs that did well against high rank antags. They still died to dumb things like aleph bombs... every time.... but they fought very well.
Who cares if someone can 1-punch you if you shoot them in the head and they die? This game is very dynamic, it doesn't just come down to "whoever has the highest stats win" because it's not a turn-based RPG or RTS where stats are all that matters.
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What's your opinion on the AFK antag situation? Where a lower level antagonist can reliably now spawn and the enemy AI compensates for his low level so much that they win the fight for him?
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I don't blame the levels because ultimately if they have a better forged gun you can absolutely tell the difference if you're wielding the same weapon. Unfortunately, they correlated levels to forge level so we're back to that again. You 'need' a minimum forge level to foster even moderate success or you will get steamrolled. Does this mean you need all bars maxed out? No, it does not but I guarantee that higher level person does and is using an extremely brutal card build to boot.
Due to this new system, you go from requiring some luck and some skill to requiring either godly skill or godly luck. This 'idea' that adding leveling didn't completely change the landscape of the PVP is a farce as it only takes a match or two to notice significant difference in DPS outputs between players. In the end, I am both baffled and largely don't care about how a match goes because between questionable CQC results and not knowing how another player achieved 'their' respective results it kind of looks like... well... people are just cheating even though they're not. Ergo, this game's lack of transparency on so very many things muddles much of what might be factual from pure speculation.
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I agree, they should allow you to see the other players, antag and raiders, weapon forges as well as levels. You should also be able to see other players MMR in and outside of the game.
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@LordDraco3 yes the game should balance enemy health/ai/spawn-rate for the raiders depending on their lvl/mmr/weapons that’s why I would see no issue with normalized stats for pvp, if the antag is going to have better stats cause it’s a 4v1 it should be an antag buff given by the game only in that scenario, basically if the antag is going to get a buff it should be a buff not tied to lvl/weapon-forge.
I would have to disagree on stats meaning way less, the scenario the op describes can happen and having a mirror match where 1 player requires 1 shot while the other 3 is pretty significant.
"it's unfair to have a lv18 antag even have the chance to play against a player who is in their first mission."
I don’t know how lvls where handled previously but i think this would hold up even today, it’s downright bad for the game having someone that’s just starting to get a grasp on the games mechanics get stomped, chances of them no coming back to the game are high, same way it takes a few lvls to unlock AEquilibrium it should take a few lvls to be eligible for the antag system. Also if this type of thread has been common and keeps on being created by new players then maybe there’s something to it.
I agree, they should allow you to see the other players, antag and raiders, weapon forges as well as levels. You should also be able to see other players MMR in and outside of the game.
Another thing I would like to see on the character select screen before the mission starts is the difficulty of the mission.
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Quanrian, 'Ergo'. I see what you did there, good one. 8)
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In my experience player level means a lot less than player intellect. I have lost to 3 times lower antagonists due to fact that my teammates are high level absolutely clueless people and I've won games where I have 3 new players and antagonist with higher level than any of us.
Also from my own antagonist experiences after Hades betrayal update I either have decisive victory or an absolute humiliation. It takes 1 or 2 clueless teammates and the team is done with or without an antagonist present.
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In my experience player level means a lot less than player intellect. I have lost to 3 times lower antagonists due to fact that my teammates are high level absolutely clueless people and I've won games where I have 3 new players and antagonist with higher level than any of us.
Also from my own antagonist experiences after Hades betrayal update I either have decisive victory or an absolute humiliation. It takes 1 or 2 clueless teammates and the team is done with or without an antagonist present.
Yes, agreed. This is 100% exactly what my point is. Player skill absolutely counts for more than just raw stats because this is not a turn based RPG.
I don’t know how lvls where handled previously but i think this would hold up even today
Previously it was only indicating your placement on the leaderboard. So a level 18 antagonist just meant they were within the top 1-3 ranks on the leaderboard, depending on how many people played antag mode that week. It pretty much meant that they beat a lot of raiders and the game showed it through rank, and that rank would flash on the screen when the antag was revealed.
it’s downright bad for the game having someone that’s just starting to get a grasp on the games mechanics get stomped, chances of them no coming back to the game are high
Why does everyone treat new players like they are actual babies playing this game? I can't think of a single other pvp type game that locks the ability to engage in said online pvp just because a person is new. Street fighter? Tekken? Soul Caliber? Evolve? Dark Souls? You can get invaded the moment you step into the world at soul level 1 in the first moments of the game.
Online mode is not where a beginner should be going to "get a grasp on the mechanics" anyways.... play solo first to get a feel. If you don't even know what the punch button does, why are you jumping in with a team that will have to carry you? Another thing I've said a million times: people don't learn mechanics when thrown into the chaos of a co-op mission. They do not learn how to do the objectives for themselves, the team does it for them and they just simply exist. When baby Harec is just shooting random wardogs from the stairs on Hangin' by a Thread, he isn't learning how to use the turrets required to progress the mission. Even worse, he might be trying to shoot the gunships with his gun and thinking it works because someone is on the turret (or shooting the beholder on In Shock, which I see from plenty of beginners). When an experienced player is grabbing elites at the end and overloading the generators, baby Harec isn't learning how to do basic game mechanics. In solo mode, you are forced to learn these things because you are the only one that can progress the mission objectives.
Bit of a side rant, but the idea of new players needing to be babied is a tired argument that I do not agree with. This is a hard game, we all know this by now. No matter which side you're on, you have to work hard to win.
What's your opinion on the AFK antag situation? Where a lower level antagonist can reliably now spawn and the enemy AI compensates for his low level so much that they win the fight for him?
Don't like it at all, I've definitely been killed "by the map" before with crappy antags, and it bothers me so much more than losing to a skilled player.
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Wow, I agree with all you've said there. I would like to add that I think a barrier should be added for new players that would require them to finish a certain level of offline modes on Medium (or even easy) before being able to go online. This way they know generally the basic mechanics of the game before being thrust, all green and rosy cheeked, to the rabid dogs. This game has had its fair share of people who have left the game before even getting far because of this, just at the Steam Reviews.
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Yes, I have asked for a solo more requirement for so long now. Easy mode would be fine, they would have easy enemies and light spawns, but would still have to figure out and complete the objectives. They can't just win by sleepwalking through the level.
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I think that forcing people to play solo is a bit too restrictive If the game had a better tutorial level things would be a lot better for a lot of people. And maybe have like a grace period where for like the first 3 online games you can't get invaded by Antag. You know so that people can get a better grasp of what they are doing.
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I think that forcing people to play solo is a bit too restrictive If the game had a better tutorial level things would be a lot better for a lot of people. And maybe have like a grace period where for like the first 3 online games you can't get invaded by Antag. You know so that people can get a better grasp of what they are doing.
That would be good to. But you know what would solve this in any case? I know, you are all going to roll your eyes at Drow, "Here he goes again, the horse is bone and ash at this point, Drow." , but separate PvP and PvE, at least passively. The elites are a good intro to CQC and the PvE matches are pretty good to do for a while in order to understand things. Make new players aware they can earn more by allowing invasion and can opt in to PvP priority. And if they get stomped too hard because they're not quite sure of the mechanics they can opt back out until they feel confident enough in what they have learned.
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"Here he goes again..."
Yeah. I think finding a way to make PvP an option and not a requirement would do a lot for the health and longevity of this game.
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I think that forcing people to play solo is a bit too restrictive
But--
If the game had a better tutorial level
Tutorial is solo
So restricting play to solo until the level is cleared....bad... but the required solo tutorial level... good?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/021/464/14608107_1180665285312703_1558693314_n.jpg)
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Yeah...The answer to this is use the big burst damage characters with big health pools. I deal about 80 damage a punch against a lvl 0. This goes down each time they level. Thats 2 shots against everyone except for aliens. If I'm using a melee card that changes more, but melee cards are most effective at lower mmrs (because it requires less hits to kill a mook, and you have a gun for that in high mmr.) So...Your only recourse is to not get hit until after you kill someone or be able to survive some bullets until you get that kill.
There are very few characters that are good at this. Harec, Doldren, and Ginebra can evaporate people easily. Lycus can do it on a crit. Loaht can do it with his ult. Alicia melts people and can avoid melee range. Hans can fly in and fly out whilst picking on squishier targets. Mikah can clone ou tto safety. Shae can put people down, but has a harder time finishing them unless you can get off that second shot and them not get out of range. (Her first gun will straight murder people, but requires a LONG charge time) Kuzzman can do AOE damage, and if they're all rushing you the Lightbogen makes there allies need to keep a distance or get shot down. Konstantin can keep everyonen at a distance or bubble people off ledges if you have the dps to just kill them. HIVE can take punishment alll day if someone close up is infected. Ayana can use that tether to make good situations better or impossible situations doable. Iune can take advantage of ai very well, and cc guns to keep people where you wantn them.
Soo...I don't think there is necessarily a wrong choice, you just gotta know what to do and when to do it. Which takes time. and that isn't waht level 0's have.
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I think that forcing people to play solo is a bit too restrictive
But--
If the game had a better tutorial level
Tutorial is solo
So restricting play to solo until the level is cleared....bad... but the required solo tutorial level... good?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/021/464/14608107_1180665285312703_1558693314_n.jpg)
Yes because a tutorial is actually meant to teach a player and stumbling around a level not knowing what to do is ineffective and time consuming.
Also pre-calculus isn't that hard.
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Have any of "struggling new players" looked at the game manual or whatever it's called? It has every core element of game described in few short sentences and with pictures. I rememeber I read it after my first game and it helped me greatly - every question I had was answered in there. They even have made a youtube video for new players now that's available at game menu.
I'm quite sure that most of new players doesn't even bother about crap like that - it's easier to just whine to someone rather than read a short and simple game manual.
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Well, a lot of peepes would argue the devz were too lazy to make a decent tutorial. I, for one, also read the manual for clarification about CQC. I did not mind. However, seeing as how the game is seriously trying to increase its player base, they really need to make picking the game up a much friendlier process. If they download the game, play the "tutorial" as it is, and then get stomped like a bitch by an Antagonist in Hanging By a Thread, there's a good possibility that they will delete and move on to play something else. Should the game hold your hand for the first couple of missions? Some people don't need it. Some people do. The people that don't need it will play the game no problem. The people that do need it will probably move on, and we need people to stick around. Unless they want to rename the game Raiders of the Dark Souls, so players know what they're getting into, they should probably throw as much love at making those first couple of hours an assuredly kick-ass experience for anyone who picks it up. No PvP. Better tutorial. Keep players. Get their money. Game's gotta be financed somehow.