You need to make the tutorial mandatory for every future beta testers invited ! The amount of people who don't understand the basics is almost scary. Before even starting matchmaking, first thing I did was search how to switch to solo, then did so, then did the tutorials and ALL the missions before even considering matchmaking. Then when all that was done I started matchmaking.

Because unlike some of my gamer colleagues, I'm decent enough to know when I'm noob at a game, and when I start a game I never ever played, I know I'm a noob at it. And even my first few games I got a bit carried, because I needed a grasp of the melee triangle and suspicion system. But at least I was not an uncarriable burden for my team.

I'm not trying to be mean to people who start the game, but to be nice to those who know the game. I never player Rocket League's competitive, never even considered it, before my first 300 hours of gameplay So you see it's not a one way street, I apply this philosophy to me too !

I agree with you. It's a shame that players don't take the time to study a game but, they will spend ample time complaining about the game when they don't understand it in the first place.

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That's because buff men's asses don't wiggle.
Women have a extra layer of fat around their body that men don't have. Its an evolutionary trait for protection.
Its why women don't show muscle definition as easily, and also means that they potentially have something to jiggle even when they're in top shape

Agreed.

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I am not saying this to be an SJW, I'm not saying this to insight any hatred, and the fact that I noticed this perhaps can say as much about me as anything in the game.....

But in the character model viewer, all the women have physics on their arses, but the men don't...
It's a tad weird to me that, as odd as it sounds such a thing isn't universal to all its characters.

it's more just a weird thing I noticed but zoom in, wiggle the characters around I think that may actually be a thing xD

Well, I don't see anything for a guy in a video game to wiggle in the model screen.

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Quote from: Glenn777 on June 16, 2017, 12:09:01 AM

*OK. Here is my final thought as well. The discussion was relevant because your points did not make any sense to me. So I asked you to elaborate so I can understand your opinion. Because to me, your POV is flawed. New players are certainly not thrown anywhere. The real first mission is a solo tutorial that informs you on how a few mechanics work in the game. This is the mission I believe can use some work. Its short, doesn't  go into detail about gameplay and character skills, and its boring.  Rescuing lycus is the second mission. So in my opinion, rescuing a dangerous person like lycus from a heavily armed transport ship, gives this rescue mission some form of a reason to be the way it is. And if a new player is constantly loosing to the second mission, ether because a skilled player is playing against them on an online match or because they can't adapt to small areas, this is not the only mission available for a new players to play in COOP. The third mission has exactly what your asking for so maybe your casual friend should try that next time. So, Unless your meaning is a proposal to give this first mission some improvements, I don't agree. Do you understand?

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I agree with that, that is why I have that opinion. The first mission (real tutorial) should go more in detail about some mechanics and longer in my opinion.

Yes, I think the second mission it's easier for a new player if he is matched against an antagonist, but I think most players will start with the first mission (tutorial and lycus) because it's named "prologue".

My problem was more pointed towards new players like my friend that are more casual players, but that they don't know anyone in the game. In the case of my friend I can tell him how the game works obvioulsy, he shouldn't have that problem.

BTW, I wasn't asking for a complete redone of the mission or advantages for the raiders, I understand that there is a narrative behind that mission, and that mission is not bad at all. I was simply exposing a possible problem, and there are a lot of different ways to fix that as expanding the tutorial like you said or simply don't letting a player match against an antagonist for their first multiplayer game.

"Dont letting a player match against an antagonist for their first game." This is what I mean by vilifying the antagonist. I'm not saying you are the one doing it, I'm saying that will render the antagonist mode unplayable there for vilifying or, for a better representation, throwing a big sign at there feet saying "no antagonists allowed because a noobie is not ready for you". This doesn't seem fair to me. Plus, I don't know if you experience this but, its a long process to connect to a match as both raider and antagonist, so imagine trying to find a game without a new player when there are more new players every beta session. It feel unplayable and cringe worthy in my opinion. This is my question for your personal opinion, if the tutorial mode were fixed to present every aspect of the game like it should have done, would you still think new players need a friend or protection from antagonists? This is an honest question.


BTW, you might have not need the run down but all of it wasn't for you. we might not be the only people reading our conversations. I like to be sure we are all on the same page. Also, understand I am not trying to argue with your beliefs. To me, you seem like a person that actually gives a damn for those who are having a hard time. You have my respect for this. But understand this as my personal experience, new players will be fine if they have Patience and perseverance. (And a better tutorial.)

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Quote from: TehMud on June 14, 2017, 05:56:27 AM

I get your point.

What I was getting at is I think there should be more info in-game on what an Antagonist is and how they work, as alot of players may never even try to play as one and won't understand what they can really do. 

At the core though I think it may also be that we don't have much communication yet beyond basic emotes, so it can be hard to show people where to go or let them know the Antagonist is behind us. We'll see.

Either way I love the Antagonist concept.

Sorry then, I misunderstood the thread. Yes, I agree with you. At least, I see the antagonist mode more for experienced players and the only end-game. No rewards, tablescore, token reward from tablescore. Harder role for newcomers.

I never though about that because I tried the game knowing what each game mode was, but yes, there need to be more info in game about each mode.

Quote from: Glenn777 on June 14, 2017, 06:52:40 AM

Defending lycus, and killing engineers, while keeping yourself and your team alive. This describes a rescue mission in my opinion. Learning the three basic CQC button mechanics shouldn't be that hard if they read the guide and fight Ali. Without these, you will die, lycus will die, and the mission is failed. So Why is a rescue mission to much to comprehend?  Like the raiders the antagonist has a job to do as well. Stopping you and your team from progressing. So working together to put the antagonist at a disadvantage by ganking, flanking, or even leading him to another player by running away is an advantage you have against him/ her. The antagonist will know where you are at all times but he/she can't fight two players at once. And in my experience the map is fine the way it is. it has two levels with ample room and quite a few ways to alternate between floors. So why should a novice have environmental advantages over the antagonist because the antagonist has more experience? Why can't the casual player stay long enough to play a different mission? How would a larger map with bigger and more abundant cover help the novice? How would this fit into the setting of the mission?

let me rephrase my question about yuselessend. What good video games are casual oriented? Or what games will he play that interests him? Also, why would a casual worry about killing minions when minions are not the objective unless they are out of ammo? Why does the novice not know what to do when the pilot explains the situation? Is playing as a group or grouping up not defense? What points from above? I was not asking for games similar to raiders.(sorry if this reads off as rude. That was not my intention.)

Although I do agree with you, we need more people playing and more game modes. But in my opinion, a practice mode will be useless. Why practice on an AI dummy if regular AI and players are far less predictable? And what will keep a casual player playing if he/she barely plays videogames anyway?

And to make Sure I'm not misleading. I am a beta player, nothing more. I am not a dev nor a creator.

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I don't want to keep discussing about something that was not the goal of this thread. So, I will try to be short.

Yes, it's a rescue mission.

I am not trying to vilify anyone Neither the pros nor the antagonist.

The only thing that I said is that from my point of view, it's not a good idea to throw a new player for the first game into that mission in that map and against an antagonist. That is all.

OK.

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Quote from: Glenn777 on June 13, 2017, 11:04:26 PM

Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

I know that in most games you can have more deaths than kills. It's not about that. I am not trying to enter the debate of pro vs noob players or raider vs antagonist.

What I am trying to say is that the first mission for the new players will be the one that they have to save lycus.

• They need to defend lycus
• They need to kill the engineers
• They need to survive the antagonist
• They need to learn the points from above
• They need to learn the game mechanics, mostly the melee system
• They have to do that before lycus die

All that IMO is too much for a new player.

That map is really small, you are attacked from different places, surviving the minions is already harder than other maps, and mixing the antagonist in there does not help at all.

The antagonist will probably know your position, making it easy to find and kill you as the map is really small.

There is very little room to learn how to play the game if you start dying a lot.

For example, if you would change that map for the next zone or the first zone of the second mission, IMO, would be easier for a new player. The map is bigger, you don't have a timer (lycus HP), easier to hide undercover, easier to see incoming enemies (the flying ship). They are more friendly to newcomers.

The worst is that you can lose that mission really fast without understanding exactly why you failed or what happened.

Quote from: Glenn777 on June 13, 2017, 11:04:26 PM

Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

The game more similar like this would be ME MP tbh, and LoL or Gw2 as the only ones with pvp.

In my case, I played more coop shooters like warframe and more typical symetric cover shoters and asymetric shooters. But there are times I want to have fun with some friends.

I already explained it before, it's not bad to learn to play. But its bad if they are like "Fuck, I don't even have time to kill 2 minions/know where I have to go before he kills me", and I think that this is dangerous for casual players, In some games like LoL when you are new you can try to play defensively, in this game you can't do that against an antogonist, but it's easier in a bigger map with more useful covers.

BTW, I really think that this game need casual players, most pvp oriented players will want to play as antagonist, as it is the end-game of this game and his role is only PvP and killing other players. If you don't have a bunch of people playing as raiders there won't be matchs.

Quote from: Glenn777 on June 13, 2017, 11:04:26 PM

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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Yes that mission, that is why I say that this mission being the first maybe can give the impresion that the game is harder than actually is.

I didn't know he warned you about the spawns, I will listen more next beta. I listened to him about the engineers.

Defending lycus, and killing engineers, while keeping yourself and your team alive. This describes a rescue mission in my opinion. Learning the three basic CQC button mechanics shouldn't be that hard if they read the guide and fight Ali. Without these, you will die, lycus will die, and the mission is failed. So Why is a rescue mission to much to comprehend?  Like the raiders the antagonist has a job to do as well. Stopping you and your team from progressing. So working together to put the antagonist at a disadvantage by ganking, flanking, or even leading him to another player by running away is an advantage you have against him/ her. The antagonist will know where you are at all times but he/she can't fight two players at once. And in my experience the map is fine the way it is. it has two levels with ample room and quite a few ways to alternate between floors. So why should a novice have environmental advantages over the antagonist because the antagonist has more experience? Why can't the casual player stay long enough to play a different mission? How would a larger map with bigger and more abundant cover help the novice? How would this fit into the setting of the mission?

let me rephrase my question about yuselessend. What good video games are casual oriented? Or what games will he play that interests him? Also, why would a casual worry about killing minions when minions are not the objective unless they are out of ammo? Why does the novice not know what to do when the pilot explains the situation? Is playing as a group or grouping up not defense? What points from above? I was not asking for games similar to raiders.(sorry if this reads off as rude. That was not my intention.)

Although I do agree with you, we need more people playing and more game modes. But in my opinion, a practice mode will be useless. Why practice on an AI dummy if regular AI and players are far less predictable? And what will keep a casual player playing if he/she barely plays videogames anyway?

And to make Sure I'm not misleading. I am a beta player, nothing more. I am not a dev nor a creator.

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Quote from: Glenn777 on June 12, 2017, 07:01:54 PM

I believe new players do not need to be coddled like baby lambs, everyone starts out as a new player and these same players don't need extra care because they didn't take the time to carefully read the tutorial guide or have the Patience to adapt to game machanics. New players especially don't need extra directions when playing against a seasoned player or a warm up to fight against seasoned players. Losing to someone who knew more than you is not an act of terror, its a learning curve that has a quota to fill and the new player must fulfill it in order to get better at the game. Learning new thing and winning with your own direction is what makes a person feel rewarded not the abuse of a redundant mode for people who want to be victims in a game. There is no such thing as a great game because it cradles new players and there never will be. This is the way I see it.

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I never said it was an act of terror, it's normal to lose and learn from the experience if you are new playing against an experienced player. I am not against that.

The problem is how you lose and letting that things to happen. Let's be honest, it's easy to die in this game, and we have an skill that is an insta-kill without any CD (I am not against that, I like the grappling) and the punching is not far away from that.

The AI is harder than other games too, something that I really enjoyed tbh. Here I think that the first map doesn't help at all with new players, it's an small map, easily attacked from behind when undercover and sometimes you fail the mission without knowing what happened. IMO and IME, the first zone is the hardest. The curve of difficulty goes from hardest to easier as you pass to the next zones, instead of increasing the difficulty and starting easier... and that is the first coop mission of the prologue... so probably the first 4v1 a player will play.

IMO, the games against the current AI can be misleading to what to expect when playing against other players. The AI always dodges the grappling coming from the front, instead most players are completely the opposite and they abuse a lot from using the melee in a smart way.

I know that I would play this game like this, I know that any other dedicated player could play this game too, but I know that my friend that play games maybe a few hours a week will play one game and won't return again if he is more time dead than alive.

Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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I cannot answer the question you brought to attention. I am a beta player. I am Not one of the devs. But I hope I understand your meaning. Your saying that games that have or should have a learning curve are only bought and sold like dark souls? what about overwatch? Or What about free to play games like smite, warframe, paladins, or even skyforge? Do these games not have a learning curve that can be managed?  and you also brought up communities. Is it not possible to contact a seasoned  player that is possibly within the community or playing on your team or against you? is there something wrong with helping new players get better at the game by sharing personal knowledge and common failures? I don't think so. COOP is a great advantage that new players and seasoned players can use in 4v1 in order to dominate an antagonist because its something an antagonist can't use during a fight. this is what I think.

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