[ScerCkan]

So not only the einstein who proposed to nerf ginebra ruined this expensive as fck character but now they gave konstantine an automatic bogen (ginebras arbalest) that goes through lycus shield like butter. Great job guys, a walking tank with panic bubble (that's ready to use everytime you die unlike kuzman electric trap) and now with ginebras ability to push characters

[menguss70]

So not only the einstein who proposed to nerf ginebra ruined this expensive as fck character but now they gave konstantine an automatic bogen (ginebras arbalest) that goes through lycus shield like butter. Great job guys, a walking tank with panic bubble (that's ready to use everytime you die unlike kuzman electric trap) and now with ginebras ability to push characters

The Nerf of Gine is very soft….with the gold Card 50% damage in 3 sec after kill ...and regenereted 60% after Puna is The powerfull Riders …

[zMalevolencEz]

Both of these concerns are manageable with a little teamwork and coordination. Even if your playing with blueberries this can still be done. I have yet to figure out everyone's issue with this.

Yes Konstantin and Ginebra push ability is annoying at best but it can be overcome. The needs were soft and barely noticed but swinging the balance of antagonist and Raiders isn't needed which is what most people are purposing.

All I do to avoid most of this is to just shoot them or bait and make a Konstantin panic bubble and once shoot him. Ginebra is all about closing the gap and forcing melee they might run they might not.

Playing smart and watching your health constantly and not being a hero will defeat these two no matter the level. Win some lose some all part of the game.

[Whitebleidd]

So not only the einstein who proposed to nerf ginebra ruined this expensive as fck character but now they gave konstantine an automatic bogen (ginebras arbalest) that goes through lycus shield like butter. Great job guys, a walking tank with panic bubble (that's ready to use everytime you die unlike kuzman electric trap) and now with ginebras ability to push characters

The Nerf of Gine is very soft….with the gold Card 50% damage in 3 sec after kill ...and regenereted 60% after Puna is The powerfull Riders …

Nerfs to ginebra were not soft, also cards to kind of fix or make up for nerfs should not be a thing, cards should be about choosing your playstyle for the character, makes it boring if certain cards start to become mandatory because of nerfs.

[Level9Drow]

So not only the einstein who proposed to nerf ginebra ruined this expensive as fck character but now they gave konstantine an automatic bogen (ginebras arbalest) that goes through lycus shield like butter. Great job guys, a walking tank with panic bubble (that's ready to use everytime you die unlike kuzman electric trap) and now with ginebras ability to push characters

The Nerf of Gine is very soft….with the gold Card 50% damage in 3 sec after kill ...and regenereted 60% after Puna is The powerfull Riders …

Nerfs to ginebra were not soft, also cards to kind of fix or make up for nerfs should not be a thing, cards should be about choosing your playstyle for the character, makes it boring if certain cards start to become mandatory because of nerfs.

Well, what that means is that Ginebra sould only be that OP if she has cards and that her default state should be more in line with the other raiders. You can use cards to make the other characters badass. You don't need ANY cards to make Ginebra badass, she already comes with the badass status. And then ON TOP of that you can card her to make her even more devastating.

The nerf was a good thing. She isn't underpowered right now, schleuder Ginebra is more in line with the rest of the raiders now and you can use cards to make her OP again, but it should cost you to make her that way.

[Whitebleidd]

Schleuder got a loss in projectile detection of 30%, that’s on a gun where I already felt like hits that looked confirmed were missing, in addition we are talking about a 40% health loss, cant wrap my head around that being small, any character in any game that takes a health nerf like that… its significant, plus the damage nerf, plus the armor nerf…

[Level9Drow]

She didn't take a health loss. She has 100 health, she took the loss in panther form. This means you can escape still, but you can't snipt someone, run ACROSS the map in two seconds while they're wounded and then execute them for Aleph. They already described that the panther form is for evasion nor letting her fire from the safety of difference and then gathering aleph with NO risk, whereas every OTHER character has to sacrifice more to get it.

Now, if she tries to gather aleph from a wounded opponent, the opponent can shoot at her while she's reforming and then wound HER before she can finish the kill. I know, it's happened to me when I played her forgetting she's got less health...in PANTHER form. But that's fine, she was OP AF.

Schleuder was TOO easy to use. You just shoot at the ground in front of your enemies and BAM wounded mode. It needed a nerf to damage, REALLY badly. In the hands of an extremely mobile character with 100 hhealth and damage reduction from firearms. It's just too much.

She's still good now. I played her all the time before, and I still play her a lot now. Schleuder Ginebras may be feeling it more, I was always a Javelin Ginebra so I felt it less.

[Whitebleidd]

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that one, imo nerf wasn’t needed, she’s not mobile when she can deal damage, she can’t deal damage when she is mobile, that was enough balance for me there, anyways not much can be done pvp whiners got what they wanted.

[LordDraco3]

Ginebra still has infinite cat (just squishier), and Schleuder still spits out tons of damage. Her nerf was pretty mild, unless I missed something? Seemed to work fine against Aneska.

Tolchok's push still needs nerfing though, for sure. Damage was, as usual, the wrong part of the gun to nerf, damage was not what puts that gun in a class of its own.

[Level9Drow]

Well, I feel if you nerfed the push on Tolchok it would remove it's gimick and usefulness. While I don't believe it should have high damage at all, I even think it should have the lowest damage of all his weapons, it shouldn't have it's push nerfed. The push is strong, but if doesn't kill fast the target, being a player, can potentially dodge out of it and have time to do so. If you nerf the push it will just be like Kuzmans new gun, and no one uses it because the push is really not consistent enough or useful enough.

Maybe it needs more damage nerf? Maybe also add more rev up time for it to spin to make it so that there is huge sacrifice to stealth and healing for those who want to use it? But don't ruin it's main feature.

EDIT: Also, Draco, look at Iune's Sigh now. With her recharge card buffed anyone who has the rare version pretty much has Tolchok. I stun lock people all the time with her, it's a very powerful gun. She's squishy and has no offensive special power, so I guess it's balanced? But Konstantin is, I admit, more durable with a more dangerous special.

[LordDraco3]

The problem with Tolchok's push is that it outdoes every other push gun in the game in every measurable category. It's fully automatic, high damage, no reload, consistent push that can send targets across a map and into a corner or off a cliff until they die. The drawback is being rotary, and fast to overheat, both can be managed by shooting efficiently.

It's essentially Ingrid, if Ingrid did more damage and pushed constantly and had infinite range.

It's S. Bogen, if S. Bogen was full auto with an endless pool of ammo and did more damage and was hitscan and had infinite range.

It's Sigh, if Sigh was full auto and didn't have to be timed for the AoE attack and had endless ammo without need to reload.

See where I'm going with this?
Anyways here was me using Tolchok against a Tolchok-less team after the nerf patch. It's not pretty, within 30 seconds of my first spawn I push 3 raiders to death while I'm in the wounded state, they can't even touch me. At one point I push Harec and Lycus around like ragdolls from across the map. The ending really puts the cherry on top, I must admit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8HQqIjHcI

[Level9Drow]

You're always on spot with the proof, man. That's really sharp.

I really can't argue with the points and evidence you've brought up. I am inclined to try and find another way to nerf the gun without nerfing the push. and the reason why is, for the first time ever there is a character than can really fight back against the AI reliably. It felt so good to pick Konstantin and go on clean up duty while the rest of my team did the objective. The AI mooks CAN'T shoot back or dodge and feel like, well, mooks. They're still dangerous because there is more than one target, but when you're dealing with bullet sponges with super healing and kick, kick, shoot executes it feels really nice to have Tolchok that you can RELY on.

But it's more important to have fair gameplay against other players I guess. So I guess it does need a push nerf.

I wish it wasn't so.

[LordDraco3]

I would like other guns to be buffed up to that level of usefullness instead, but I mentioned all other guns that push, and I do not see any of those getting a high enough buff to become as useful.  It DOES feel good to use an effective weapon, but then it makes similar gear that's weaker practically obsolete and objectively worse. I feel compelled to keep Tolchok equipped because it's so good, even though I truly prefer the Tsiklon for multiple reasons.

I want it to stay good, but in its current state it has breached the level of "too good" in comparison to all other weapons. And you know I am a big opponent of nerfing stuff as a general rule. Buffing when possible is always a better option, like how they just buffed all of the character cards to be actually good (for the most part)

[Black_Adder_]

OP mentioned one thing that definitely must be nerfed - Konstantin's bubble always being ready after death. Just make it to be on cooldown during respawn because otherwise antagonist can just spawn nearby party, bubble everyone down the cliff and die to respaen 5 sec later and repeat.
I don't care about Konstantin's guns, but instant bubble after respawn is not fair.