[ElvenNeko]

You are looking for a hardocre pvp it seems, and I don't think this game is looking for this target, mostly when the only pvp that exist in this game is a 1v4

https://www.mercurysteam.com/raiders-of-the-broken-planet/community/index.php?topic=37.0

Raiders of the Broken Planet is a 4vs1 Online third person shooter.

This game is suposed to be played 4v1, thus it suposed to be ballanced for a real challenge, and not for the noobs who want an easy pve. I won't discuss this more because you trying to pretend that this game is not pvp oriented.

Also, i do not want Antagonist to be overpowered. I just want to get rid of cheap and unbeatable mechanics groups of players can use to create disbalance in game. And best way to deal with it will be not even buffing or nerfing someone, but instead forcing raiders to split, allowing Antagonist to catch them without friend's assistance. Maps with objectives on different levels are great example of that, even better would be if Antagonist would be able to destabilize those objectives, forcing players to move. Or you afraid of 1v1 combat with someone who have just the same abilities as you do?

They were beated hard by the antagonist in each game, after 30-40 min the streamer girl changed to another game and said she hated the experience because it was so frustrating.

No place for pussies in pvp games, right? Youtube guys are usually worst kind of gamers in terms of expirience, also the girls are almost never taking games serious or having any skill in them. That combined - she would start crying in almost every single competitive game. Especially those that are well ballanced, not like this one right now. When making online game you must not aim to please every noob who might just not like the game idea and shoud go to another game instead.

Entry for new players is easy enough. It's called solo mode. It has less rewards for a reason - because it is created for people to learn basics.  But i would say 4-th time, in case you do not understand - i don't mind coop mode being added.

[stridedxeno]

Second, you are comparing premades of good players against an antagonist.

Now read post again, beacause it seems like you just read the title and then go respond asap. Especially the part that says:

But to show how bad things are in this game - let's assume that we are fighting 4y.o. children, who will always lose in 1v1 fight just because they are bad.

And everything after that.

I read your post, and I already said that I don't believe that people who can't beat you because they are bad will beat you in the mission.

You are looking for a hardocre pvp it seems, and I don't think this game is looking for this target, mostly when the only pvp that exist in this game is a 1v4. I wouldn't like a pvp of 4 vs overpowered 1. I played that type of games and I hated them. One of the things that I find different of this game and make it special is that the antagonist is just like you, only playing on the other side.

And I don't think they should buff the antagonist, maybe they could have some control over the minions or something to make the mission harder but without hurting new players, something that would only hurt long games. Something that is not too visual. It's not fun when a game end in 5 min.

And I know that I am not the only one because I saw a video on youtube of 3 players together playing on skype testing this game. They were beated hard by the antagonist in each game, after 30-40 min the streamer girl changed to another game and said she hated the experience because it was so frustrating. Only one of them wanted to test the game a little more and got how the game worked. IMO this game needs a way to make the entry for new palyers much easier if they want that the casual players will play for more than 1 day. 

I saw another video of an antagonist, someone that ended first in ranking admitting that it was way easier to win as antagonist that as a raiders. some of his gameplays where incredible fast, and probably a bad experience for the raiders.

     is that the total biscuit video you're referenceing??? if so their track history is not very good on pvp.

[Derclaw]

No place for pussies in pvp games, right? Youtube guys are usually worst kind of gamers in terms of expirience, also the girls are almost never taking games serious or having any skill in them. That combined - she would start crying in almost every single competitive game. Especially those that are well ballanced, not like this one right now. When making online game you must not aim to please every noob who might just not like the game idea and shoud go to another game instead.

Entry for new players is easy enough. It's called solo mode. It has less rewards for a reason - because it is created for people to learn basics.  But i would say 4-th time, in case you do not understand - i don't mind coop mode being added.

Lots of online games would be dead if not for so hated by you "baddies".
Problem is - THIS game must yet get it audience - and yes that means it should appeal to "noobs" and baddies, cause otherwise you will have no people to play with.

Evolve, For Honour, Battleborn (aside of being butchered by launch during Overwatch launch) all failed to establish their audience both by being full priced games and by failing to not frustrate people with ill though mechanics.

If\when proper solo mode with full progression and "non-antagonist coop" will be added - fine, brag all you want about borked balance and that hardcore Anatagonist should win vs hardcore team of four people 50% of time, even if that will mean that Hardcore Antagonist will win 200% of time with badly coordinated team of casuals (guess what also contributed to sink of Evolve? Monsters were balanced around hardcore players so you had field day vs new players resulting in wooping winstreaks of 20+ games on consoles).

Antagonist is not alwasy present - AGAIN. And when antagonist is not present - this is PvE shooter,
And I can brag that people who seek hardcore PvP wont bother with this game - because its assymetrical 4 vs 1 PvP and thus you not exactly proving you are better in certain skill, you just acting as invader/very strong mob, not an "honorable combatant" .

As I said - I made a poll.
Ofc its not end all be all - but resulst... are what I expected.
http://www.strawpoll.me/13159908/r

Base game mode should be super inclusive and accesable by all sorts of age, skill lvl and manual dexterity and should be funtimes with PUGs and firstimers. 
Not Solo, not tutorial - basic MAIN mode with PUGs matchmaking.
Otherwise no ammount of Antagonist balance will save it from biting the dust REALLY fast. In online coop games people are your content just as much (if not more) as actula ingame stuff. Alienating the "unworthy" is a fast way to game death by playerbase shrinking.

THEN - you can start adding chalenges and "risk-rewards" on top of that.
Higher difficulty settings for premade teams and solo with higher rewards and unique vanity stuff, rewards for killing antagonists and playing as antagonist aside of stigmatas. Non-binary win condition for antagonist - you still get rewards if you fail like raiders do when they fail, but you still get the coockie for trying - so even not so hardcore people would give it a chance.

Also "Solo Antagonist" mode where you fight vs drasticly buffed AI raiders could be a thing too.

 

[Ebisu_rkz]

is that the total biscuit video you're referenceing??? if so their track history is not very good on pvp.

I don't follow her, I only found the video looking for a gameplay of this game. Surely it was her, as I didn't find the video again but her voice is really similar.

The thing is that I don't think you should scare ppl like this even if they are good or bad in pvp. if the devs want this game to be oriented to hardcore players is their decision to do, but I think that this game need to be open to any type of player as it's in the middle of a pvp shooter game and a co-op shooter game.

if you see that some players are losing hard everytime, don't keep matching them against an antagonist, let them do a few games without an antagonist. But to do that the populations of raiders has to be way bigger than the antagonist.

I have played a lot of pvp games, and I have to admit that the first games have been hard. I enjoyed the game so far, but I enjoyed the game only when I played some games and I knew how it worked, I know that a lot of my friends won't be like me.

[stridedxeno]

is that the total biscuit video you're referenceing??? if so their track history is not very good on pvp.

I don't follow her, I only found the video looking for a gameplay of this game. Surely it was her, as I didn't find the video again but her voice is really similar.

The thing is that I don't think you should scare ppl like this even if they are good or bad in pvp. if the devs want this game to be oriented to hardcore players is their decision to do, but I think that this game need to be open to any type of player as it's in the middle of a pvp shooter game and a co-op shooter game.

if you see that some players are losing hard everytime, don't keep matching them against an antagonist, let them do a few games without an antagonist. But to do that the populations of raiders has to be way bigger than the antagonist.

I have played a lot of pvp games, and I have to admit that the first games have been hard. I enjoyed the game so far, but I enjoyed the game only when I played some games and I knew how it worked, I know that a lot of my friends won't be like me.

. i dont know. tbh the mechanics in the game is really simple. iv also got beaten by non pre made teams.  tbh all you need to do is study a little bit and you'll be fine. when i jumped on this week first think i went to was the quick guide. section and it just became that clear.

[Derclaw]

Well when game will go live - not very high percentage of people will go to even lurk on forums. People will most likely drop game long before they get to stage when they will might consider consulting forum.

And thats why Antagonist should be kept at bay. Its a wild-card that is not needed to be in game when people are just starting and are yet learning to deal with grappler mobs. Just like in fighting games - being matched vs vastly stronger oponent will result in nothing but frustration - as your ass will be wooped so fast, you will fail to learn anything aside of "fuk diz game".

But when you will feel like game became too easy, and its not fun to kill stupid AI anymore... then you can try to recruit Antagonist in your game or que into Ranked -  WILLINGLY and KNOWING what you bring upon yourself, so when your ass will be kicked - you will have nobody but yourself... and teammates to blame :}. But not the game itself.

[stridedxeno]

Well when game will go live - not very high percentage of people will go to even lurk on forums. People will most likely drop game long before they get to stage when they will might consider consulting forum.

And thats why Antagonist should be kept at bay. Its a wild-card that is not needed to be in game when people are just starting and are yet learning to deal with grappler mobs. Just like in fighting games - being matched vs vastly stronger oponent will result in nothing but frustration - as your ass will be wooped so fast, you will fail to learn anything aside of "fuk diz game".

forgot to mention, not the guide on the forums. i ment the ingame guide.... but then again.. what you said would more then like would applie to that guide as well.

[ElvenNeko]

Evolve, For Honour, Battleborn (aside of being butchered by launch during Overwatch launch) all failed to establish their audience both by being full priced games and by failing to not frustrate people with ill though mechanics.

And Dead by Daylight is thriving, despite it being a 4v1 game, having terrible ballance, technical state of an alpha (almost year of release, bugs from beta still present), and being a paid dlc fest. And i can give a lot more examples like that. Take fighting games - you need months of training to beat somewhat expirienced players. How many time you need for same task in Raiders? 1 or 2 games played? No, sorry, your players are not  bad - they never even tried, and chose to rq instead.

(guess what also contributed to sink of Evolve? Monsters were balanced around hardcore players so you had field day vs new players resulting in wooping winstreaks of 20+ games on consoles

That shows how little you know about other games when you try to state reasons why they fail. Monsters in Evolve were a joke that could kill only pub players. Any coordinated team could not even hunt them, just wait on spawn an win. So many monsters left the game, that increased matchmaking timers, game were dead.

Base game mode should be super inclusive and accesable by all sorts of age, skill lvl and manual dexterity and should be funtimes with PUGs and firstimers. 

This is where you are wrong. What is written on main page of this game? "Why we need another shooter"? There is enough casual games out there. Not every game should to cover as big audience as possible because then all games would be just the same. If people were thinking as you do, there would never be rts, mobas, survivals, fightings, stealth and other genres that take time and skill to be good.

[Ebisu_rkz]

This is where you are wrong. What is written on main page of this game? "Why we need another shooter"? There is enough casual games out there. Not every game should to cover as big audience as possible because then all games would be just the same. If people were thinking as you do, there would never be rts, mobas, survivals, fightings, stealth and other genres that take time and skill to be good.

What has this to do with being a hardcore game or not? Being inclusive to new players has anything to do with being creative and original.

The game is different from other shoters, has interesting mechanics, and that doesn't mean they should make the game only for hard players. That is what I think they meant when they wrote "Why we need another shooter?", they never wrote anything about casual shoters on the main page.

And BTW, if this game will be harcore or not is a decision the devs will have to do. I haven't read in any part that this game will be special hard as dark souls or any other game.

I get that you worry about the balancing (not ballancing) in the end game and more competitive players, I worry more about the players will keep playing after 2 days.

[Derclaw]

This game hardly aiming to steal audience from RTS, MOBAs, survivals, fightings and stealth + RTS and MOBAs have scrubs and baddies as their main audience.
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution - observer Rank distribution in LoL.
You see how little people overall get to Diamond and Platinum? And I am not even talking casual mode that is not shown here.

No every game needs fanatical dedication, sometimes game just needs to be fun to play.

And both RTS and MOBAs are more or less at their "funniest" stage for me when you just messing around as scrub with other scrubs - no rigid buildorders, no rigid meta picks, no raging on shit going south, cause you just messing around and no hard feelings, you learn new things and thats why loss is not as harsh. But once it stops being game and becomes competition I lose interets very rapidly.
I play games to have fun, not to compete with others - and alot of people do that too. Because I for once have real life, real problems and enough headbutting with people IRL, so its not welcome in games. I also have stable income and money that I am  willing to spend on recretional activities like games and movies - if they are worth my time and leave a feeling of satisfaction in the end.

And definition of "casual coop shooter" is vague at best. I know only one game that is semi-occupies that spot and feels great doing so - again - Warframe.
I know no game of same caliber who comes even close to Warframe in terms of how much stuff you get to do in it for free. And not only Warframe has all that stuff - its still keep on giving - development is slow but steady and if you pick Warframe now as new player - you will have few years before you will finish every possible activity in game and max all equipment.
And Warframe did that because how inclusive game is and how you can pretty much be completely freeloading and get every game-play reliant stuff for free - if you willing to dedicate time, or you can buy everything with plat if you cant wait, or anything inbetween.
What else can be considered casual coop shooter? Killing Floor 2?

When you say RTS and MOBAs - I guess what you mean is Starcraft 1-2, DOTA and LoL. Because no other RTS is currently has any sort of relevance - its alot of them on the market, but they dont have millions or even just tens of thouthand people playing them.
Same for MOBAs - there are alot of them yes, but aside of LoL, Dota and probably Heroes of The Storm - all of them irrelevant right now. Strife, HoN, Dawngate (RIP) - where are they now? I guess Vanglory is doing ok - but its niche mobile title.

"Bloodline champions" died out because of being too hardcore and thus being unable to sustain decent playerbase +  breakge of promise to not give stats edge to anybody for sake of giving people progression. Newbs were slaughetred by vets who not only had superior game knowledge but also superior stats on their characters.

Current incarnation of BC -  "Battlerites" -  is doing better but has same problem - game requres alot of dedication, something that alot of people just wont do - why waste hundreds of hours on another PvP game? But atleast they are not repeating same mistake with giving Vets more power.

Fighting games are niche and again most "relevant" of them run on well known franchises - Street Fighter 5(!), Mortal Combat 10(!!), Gulty Gear Whatever, King of fighters 14(!!!). Injustice is "kinda" new but its basicly Mortal Combat with DC crew. Again lots of dedication needed to play on top lvl that not alot of people will be willing to do.

"Raiders of Broken Planet" are trying to do what Battleborn, Evolve failed to do. Be many things at once - its coop, its PvE, its asymmetrical PvP (symmetrical in case of Battleborn), its B2P with F2P mechanics of skins and tickets, its story driven, but relies on multiple repetition to get items you need. Fail a single aspect and game overall will crumble.

Games like "Overwatch", "Starcraft", "Street fighter", "Dota", "LoL", "Witcher", "Nier Autromata" - share one simple thing - they are are not trying to be many things at once.
They do one thing great. And they also inclusive while doing so - some by design (difficulty setting in single player games), others by virtue of having HUGE playerbase and thus being able to mach pros with pros and scrubs with scrubs without turning matchmaking into slogfest.

But if you dont have virtue instantly huge playerbase (cause you are not Blizzard and thats your first online game release ever on a very scetchy busines model of episodic releases) hardcore aspect of the game should not be main concern. Diehard fans who just like whole idea will play no matter what, even if expirience will be subpar - but other players wont be so kind. Again its alot of different games around - and if one isnt fun - they will find one that is.

But ofc, I am just a scrub who wants my game to be fun, instead of constant struggle. And want alot of different people playing alongside, even if sometimes I will have to carry them or give advice.

[TehMud]

Well the problem is - solo mode offers no rewards or progression. Asuming that will be changed - we can asume that anything can be changed.

As for current game state- "If you afraid of Antagonist play solo" is not even an argument. You have no reason to play game solo after you got initial reward from you mission. Hell Shae resque doesnt have solo rewards at all.

Didn't even realize that part. Yeah Solo Mode needs equal rewards for sure.