[John_013]

Wow, didn't expect 2 others from that game to join the convo.

Who are we talking about?

[Black_Adder_]

From all the antagonists I have ever met there were just 2 players that truly were good with Hans. Usually it's more like super lame squad members than good antagonist when Hans win.
5th council, all snipers, H.I.V.E., another Hans - all those can easily beat Hans antagonist unless the squad consists of new players or simply bad players.
Also if I remember correctly Mercury already has nerfed Hans multiple times.

[LordDraco3]

Wow, didn't expect 2 others from that game to join the convo.

Who are we talking about?

jmv was loaht and This_Is_Howser was HIVE in the specific game that triggered this thread. level9drow was alicia and I was the Hans antag, only the Kuzmann from that game hasn't chimed in.

[BeertheBrad]

Kuz + Lichtbogen = Dead Hans

Set trap by popping a couple enemies with the Lb. Wait for him to fly in range, shock drop and fry. Squadies clean up the wounded Hans. Rinse and Repeat.

[Level9Drow]

Kuz + Lichtbogen = Dead Hans

Set trap by popping a couple enemies with the Lb. Wait for him to fly in range, shock drop and fry. Squadies clean up the wounded Hans. Rinse and Repeat.

And if you don't have this weapon? Ah, the flaw of the design is revealed, and what then? Take your thrashings without complaint or recourse, I suppose. How "encouraging".

[LordDraco3]

Or just look at my last peice of advice again.... Lichtbogen is not a requirement, and there is no flaw that favors antags.

Just lost as Hans in the prologue to a strong team consisting of Loaht, Konstantine, and Kuzman, with a total newbie (free kills) Hans. Kon and Kuz are both excellent anti-antags due to their armor range and damage, they are weak in close quarters, but both specials negate that weakness, and both weapons will melt anything that isn't also 5th council.

[Level9Drow]

Or I'll give my feedback, request that they remove weapons from antag rank. Seperate the two types of players and see if they value their customer. If they do they would have an option to turn off "invader" mode, and remove weapons from antag mode. It has been the single most horrible experience in this game I've had. Which is sad, because the rest of the game is so fantastic. This game is going to end up like the game Evolve if they don't stop FORCING this horrible experience on others. In the mean time I will surrender and get it over with, because it isn't any fun. This problem for them will never go away.

[This_Is_Howser]

Nothing against Dracco here, but if our Kuz had been focused on the antag instead of the lesser AI, our chances for winning that match would have increase exponentially. It's not like he was untouchable. Even you (Alicia) and I (HIVE) teamed and got a few kills on him.

We had some flaws, but we still got to stage three of that mission. I've been an Antag for the same prolouge mission as Loaht and taken the team down half way through the second section, and their Alicia was dominating me, and they had a Kuz. It wasn't an easy match, and I'm not the best player, but I can time it right and charge on one person, single them out and take them down. As an Antag Loaht you almost NEVER get your beast mode unless you self inflicted, and even then they probably take you down before you get it. I wouldn't call Loaht OP though.

Focus on teaming with someone on your team and you 2 focus the antag while the other 2 focus the mission objectives.
Or just play Kuzman lol he always seems to have a one up on antags.
Or, last but not least, keep practicing at getting better at PVP interactions. Yes it sucks that it's forced right now, but it's a part of the game. If you want to play, you've got to deal with it and get better at it, not back out of the match or feed the antag. Screwing your team like that because you can't match up against a Hans antag is garbage. I've seen solid teams win and lose against skilled Hans, Kuz, Loaht, Lycus, and even a Herec.
If you really hate it that much, there's talk of it being worked on - don't play until they change it. Don't screw others because you don't like it/can't handle it.

[LordDraco3]

Yeah over the weekend I played Hans there again and lost to a good team who had their Kuzman and Konstantine focusing on me. I still killed them like 30 times but it's really hard to take down 5th council with Hans, due to their armor. I have to get in close and melee, but that's hard to do with constantly being bubbled and shocked to death. They also had a noob Hans that was easy pickings, and I don't remember the 4th.

tl;dr- any player can be beaten with the right strategy and character. I took down another Rank 18 Antagonist Lycus with a team of 3 (someone left the match at start), 1 of which was a noob. I was Hive and the antag never stood a chance any time I got close.

[TheBrentWoody]

So, I'm just going to put my hat in the ring for just a second...

Don't nerf Hans.

Drow, You're looking at antags the wrong way.  Any game with an antag is a free win (reward wise) and if you actually beat him you get a super win with even greater chances of drops. 

Thank your local antagonists for granting the gift of treasure.

Now, I'll be more serious.  If you're the type of player (which you obviously are) who cannot handle the asymmetric style of game, and you continue to play this very game...then you might have to just know that occasionally you're going to have a bad experience, and try to emotionally prepare for that in advance. Why would they tweak the game? The possibility for the antag is exciting, and informs other tactical choices.  It's part of the unique flavor of the game.  So, if you choose to auto surrender to mitigate this problem for yourself, good for you.  If you choose to call antag rounds "FUN ROUNDS" and just try to enjoy yourself...do that.  I don't know what it'll take for you to enjoy it, but I'm sure you can figure it out.  I do know, however, that every alien can deal with Hans. Every Fifth Council can deal with Hans.  (Most Wardogs, though they are much harder) and All of the Hades Division.

So...Of the three characters that have the hardest time with HANS...you had all three... Just too consider.

[TheBrentWoody]

I think losing to an antag does need to clearly show that it gives good rewards.  The loss screen effects peoples feelings about the game negatively. So, it could be kinda tweaked to make it clear that (if anything) you just got more because of the antagonist, which is a great system for asymmetric models, because there will always be those guys you just can't beat.

[Level9Drow]

I think losing to an antag does need to clearly show that it gives good rewards.  The loss screen effects peoples feelings about the game negatively. So, it could be kinda tweaked to make it clear that (if anything) you just got more because of the antagonist, which is a great system for asymmetric models, because there will always be those guys you just can't beat.

If it's purely about rewards than the most efficient method would be to surrender, feed or throw, because you get the most amount of rewards relative to time spent in the match. But it's not entirely about rewards, it's about the joy of achieving goals and the act of progressing forward with the action. The antagonist is nothing more than an obstacle to this enjoyment. Especially in the case of an overpowered raider like Hans, additionally played by a high ranked player.

The game is confusing, it paints a picture of a group of players getting together for PvE, but then occasionally shatters this expectation with an "invader" mechanic. This is disjointing because it will automatically put a preference on one scenario over another for the players, they are contrasted. Whereas other games are either ALL PvP or ALL PvE, and there is not comparison within the boundaries for players to expect.

Now for a PvP player this may or may not be a big deal. But for a PvE player this means any time the game you enjoy is "invaded" by an antag it means you will do whatever is necessary to avoid, or expedite the encounter. We just want to get back to the part of the game we enjoy. Depending on the player there are different methods unfortunately that facilitate this ends. A) Surrender, B)Throw, C)Feed or D)Suicides. Some of these methods are more or less ethical and may be frowned upon, but until we have a "turn off invader" option, or some other unforeseen development that can alleviate this issue, these methods of avoidance will be a reality for matches with PvE minded players in the game.  You cannot cater to both play-styles and not expect friction to occur, that isn't a realistic expectation.

[TheBrentWoody]

It seems like, when the population reaches desire that every match will include an antagonist.  Just based on how matching works there will, assumably be 1 to 4 trying to play antagonist at any given time. So, ultimately, you should expect this to be a competitive pvp.

[Level9Drow]

It seems like, when the population reaches desire that every match will include an antagonist.  Just based on how matching works there will, assumably be 1 to 4 trying to play antagonist at any given time. So, ultimately, you should expect this to be a competitive pvp.

I'm not sure the developers would agree with you. At least that's not how they described it. And if what you say is true, this is a tragedy, as this game has fantastic PvE content in a time where PvE campaign mode content is extremely scarce with games now a days. I left Overwatch because I wanted more PvE content and was tired of PvP, i'm afraid if they aren't at least willing to focus on PvE in some way they won't be offering anything new that bigger developers don't already offer. Other team shooters have PvP in spades, this game has PvE in spades, when allowed to. Why ruin a good thing?

[TheBrentWoody]

I'm not taking about their model, simply large numbers. You can probably count on antagonists in a larger player pool. I mean, if I'm playing solo I've always got the antagonist mission searching, which isn't often, but most people just want to play regardless of game mode. It beats sitting in a long search.