[Level9Drow]

I don't think they should Nerf Ginebra because she's too fun to play

I mean, I felt that way about Hans, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least he got some good cards to balance it out, that help eliminate or reduce that crazy long refuel time.

*In general*, nerfs to the players are not fun for the players. I do not enjoy the 5th council armor nerf that we got with Hades one damn bite. Ginebra has no weaknesses as admitted by everyone here, but that's OK.

Well with Hans it the problem was apparent because he was OP regardless of the weapon he used. So this clearly pointed to the character needing the nerf. I didn't agree that BOTH should have been though. They should bring his weapon values back up since they nerfed his jet pack.

The difference with Gin was that we can CLEARLY see she's NOT overpowered with her default gun and Javelin, but then when she gets the Schleuder she becomes OP, this would mean the problem is the weapon and that the weapon needs to be nerfed.

[Black_Adder_]

I think it's all because Ginebra is last character you get so there's lot of myths about how super cool she is from poeple who hasn't even used her themselves. I got her, tried her and hated her. She is slow, her weapons are slow and running away from mobs in cat form doesn't solve the problem that you still need to kill them. Ginebra is easiest character from 5th council to swarm and can be ounched and grappled in her cat form.
If you have to fight Ginebra antagonist, all you have to remember - don't run in straigth line towards the antagonist when he aims at you. He will miss his 1st shot, start to freak out and miss the rest of them.

[menguss70]

I think it's all because Ginebra is last character you get so there's lot of myths about how super cool she is from poeple who hasn't even used her themselves. I got her, tried her and hated her. She is slow, her weapons are slow and running away from mobs in cat form doesn't solve the problem that you still need to kill them. Ginebra is easiest character from 5th council to swarm and can be ounched and grappled in her cat form.
If you have to fight Ginebra antagonist, all you have to remember - don't run in straigth line towards the antagonist when he aims at you. He will miss his 1st shot, start to freak out and miss the rest of them.

Ginebra is my favorite Rider...and Black
he's absolutely right ... so many times they nailed me like that ... and like all riders they have strengths and weaknesses ...

[Level9Drow]

Nah, Shleuder needs a nerf.

[TheBrentWoody]

There is not a good way to Balance Schleder and keep it useful.  It needs to do its crazy damage, or it's garbage.  Hah.  I love it, but it is STRONG antag gun, the problem being that adds have more health than raiders, and if it can't one shot a raider then it is absolute garbage.

[Level9Drow]

There is not a good way to Balance Schleder and keep it useful.  It needs to do its crazy damage, or it's garbage.  Hah.  I love it, but it is STRONG antag gun, the problem being that adds have more health than raiders, and if it can't one shot a raider then it is absolute garbage.

The way I would nerf it would be to lower the straight damage further, to draw it more in line with the Javelin. Make the Schleuder damage the same as the Javelin damage up close and the "ricochet" damage the same as Javelin at far range. If these values are good enough for the Javelin they're good enough for the Shleuder.

[SniffaXxX]

The only part of Schlueder that really needs to be nerfed is the light up aiming reticule when your shot will hit. That turns zeros to heros. One step away from auto aim. If you're going up against a host with schlueder there's next to nothing you can do because they always hit. If the gun took more skill to aim it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

[TheBrentWoody]

The only problem with that is incredibly unpredictable texture physics.

[SniffaXxX]

The only problem with that is incredibly unpredictable texture physics.

I'm okay with the line for aiming. Just the fact that it changes colors when your shot is lined up makes it too easy.

[Level9Drow]

That's a very good idea. Take away the "red" indicator and make them have to aim like everyone else and EARN that high damage. I could live with this.

[TheBrentWoody]

The color is easily abused once you know how it works. Ha. But I am totally cool with just blue beam no red.

[4nalManiac]

If you nerf it without adding something to balance it you are going to make the weapon completely useless. Not to mention making Ginebra useless as antagonist aswell vs antagonist. Its cool to run in cougar form but as stated above it does not solve the actual problem of having to kill the enemies. In fact is quite a disadvantage not being able to run, not having somehting to repeal enemies in CQC and your only mobility form does not allow hitting back. Alicia can corner you pretty easily with her ability.

The default weapon is really shitty, it should have a buff. Maybe faster tension and 2 additional shots.

If you get caught by an anta or player in CQC with the Javelin you are fried. Not to mention you can actually see and evade the projectiles. They are quite visible and slow.

It is even difficult to finish them off with it! As crazy damage as it does, many times I have found myself shooting them on down state and they just dont die nor do they get pushed. 

Schleuder has a hard time against flying Hans, other 5th council and even some Mikas. Even Lycus can become a problem.

Perhaps making the straight shot do 10 damage and buff a little bit the ricochets. Perhaps even reducing the capacity to 3 or 4 shots. Overheating like Shae's rifle (including the inability to hit, roll or run) could be an option as well. Make it noisy so you know when she is vulnerable. Try to shoot something that is on the air with it is so damn difficult! Even enemies jumping are hard to hit by the Schleuder.

Finally there is a big gap in between shots, maybe it doesnt feel like it but when you are shooting at an enemy coming straight at you it feels so slow and the closer they are the less ricochets you can score on them. Oddly enough it also sucks in long distance engagements. It does poor damage in a straight line and from a distance is hard to make a second ricochet.

It may seem op in corners, hallways and the occasional crazy damage that does on a 3rd or 4th ricochet but apart from that not only is not op but it shows how  her 2 other weapons are really weak.

Hopefully this will lead to a faster release of another weapon for her!

Btw, the color thing is not a sure way of getting a hit, they can still move out of the way if you are far enough. Not to mention the actual hit of the projectile is really tiny.

[LordDraco3]

I've taken plenty of shots on red and missed, due to travel time not hitscan.

I would like to see this laser put on Hornet, tbh, since they are both marketed as ricochet guns but I can't hit shit with bounce shots on it.

Also 4nal posted as I was about to, agree with that post. When I use Ginebra, I don't feel like some OP unstoppable god like this thread suggests. Strong, yes, OP, no.

[SniffaXxX]

Admittedly, I've never used schluder myself so my opinions are a little one sided. I just know I feel like a schlueder player can usually get me before I have a chance to do anything, it's usually only bad against a host with schlueder.  Dedicated servers could solve a lot of problems lol. But that's a different topic.

[Level9Drow]

I still think it does too much damage considering it's a 100 health 5th council that can escape whenever she wants. Again, compare it to the other heroes that one shot, as stated above.

If she COULDN'T escape then the argument for swarming her would make sense, but it doesn't, she can just run away. And running away DOES solve a lot of issues as antag, you stay alive and they have to exert effort concentrating on you rather than the mission. Even if they DIDN'T kill you but you are harassing them and not dying this allows more adds to spawn, more time to tick, more phases for the boss to occur, more damage to escort, etc... I mean, she can do this anyways, but the added threat of a one hit kill is a bit much for someone outside of the Alien (worry "locals") faction.

Again, keep the damage the same, just make Ginebra antags EARN the damage by removing the red indicator, keep the blue line, remove the red light up. Otherwise nerf the damage if you're going to keep the red indicator.

EDIT: It's important to note that you CANNOT take cover from this weapon. And that even being out in the open is a death sentence, she just has to shoot the ground in front of you. Other characters that can one shot you have the option of taking cover, or just killing them since they only have 60 health and very little escape.

I've been on the receiving end of an antag with a Schleuder and there felt like there was VERY little we could do, we were at the complete mercy of the antag. Unless we had a very skilled sniper of another Gin with the Schleuder.