[Level9Drow]

I absolutely hate this games pvp and believe me I know how frustrating it is, but there has to be a different solution to this issues, every week there’s a new weapon that has to be nerfed because of pvp, we still need this weapons to fight grunts with 300, 400+ health.

If weapons are going to keep on getting nerfed we need something to change ai side, maybe difficulty settings, the ability to cap our mmr or just stop mmr from bloating the hp of mobs, idk, but I don’t think just nerfing weapons is the answer.

Alicia in particular needs some love on her weapons, I only recently got a hold of my 1st daisy blueprint and I was underwhelmed to say the least, I’m no expert on it (only used the gun like 3 times) but for a rare weapon it’s just sad, bad range, even worse clip size, mediocre damage it really needs those crits…

@LordDraco3 I noticed that about R&R but I thought it was actually a fix instead of a glitch, I always found it weird the bullets would ricochet but not cause additional damage

Are you insane? Why should a gun with a decent RoF WIDE ASS spread and LONG range be able to one or two shot? This is not balanced at ALL. It severely needs a damage fall off. And the range is further than any of her other guns yet it does WAY more damage.

[LordDraco3]

a single shot hitting for a single 90 isn't that much....you definitely never complained about it being "OP" before Hades and that's roughly the numbers it hit, 80-90, and even back then every weapon was weaker because the Forge system buffed every weapon in the game, since AI enemies are all stronger now too.
You are asking for Alicia to be a worthless character in general which she practically is, R&R is just about the only thing keeping her from being dead weight. Daisy is a gimmick bombing weapon, not a gun, and her other 2 guns are literally not even worth wasting bullets on because they are that bad.

I don't know if the multiple numbers were intentional or not, but it didn't perform like that when the gun was first added in, from my memory of trying it out. I distinctly remember thinking it was the best she had but it was still unremarkable due to the slow fire rate and reload time. No one complained about it back then, but everyone does now, so it sounds to me like shots hitting multiple times was unintentional, but I could be wrong. Nobody outside of locals would go down with 1 hit if it only hit once per shot, outside of damage cards.

If R&R was nerfed, all 3 of her others gun would need sweeping buffs across the board to make her remotely useful at high level play. Novera needs more range, Eager needs way more damage and range and less recoil, every shot needs to hit like a Shit Happens, Daisy needs more ammo or a significant reload speed buff, longer range, faster projectiles, and more damage.

[Level9Drow]

I COMPLETELY agree that all of her other guns need a buff. But this does not mean that Rock & Roll doesn't need a nerf, just because her other guns suck. Nor does it mean her other guns need to be buffed to the point of over powered status of R&R.

[Skyline]

18.06.2018
16 games this day by me (stream all of em)
Play only as Rider today.
7 games vs antagonist.
4/7  Alisia with stupid Broken R&R (+Loath, Ayana and Genebra)
Just raw stats.

R&R really makes this game of more trashy.

[LordDraco3]

It was confirmed to be a bug earlier, so now we know it's not supposed to be hitting multiple times per shot.

That said, what do you guys even recommend in the mean time? Not play Alicia? It's her only gun worth using right now, not just because it spits out these damage numbers, but the other 3 guns are some of the worst in the whole game. I haven't played her almost at all in my hundreds/thousands of play hours because her weapons are so bad, I just started using her again because I finally got R&R yesterday by random good luck and I'm really enjoying her finally. If R&R just wasn't an option or was as hated as Tolchok to not be used (lots of people saying don't use Tolchok because we all know it's stupidly OP), why even play her with a bunch of guns that can't do anything? At least Kon's other weapons are good.

[Level9Drow]

Yes, what you're saying is true and valid. But it's not fun for anyone on the receiving end. They feel cheated, lose motivation to fight back, tilt horribly, or just give up and stop playing. I recommend surrendering against R&R to load the success rates of it to an obnoxious degree to more quickly get the bug fix or nerf, whatever is needed. But as I've said before, I agree that her other guns suck horribly. I would hope that along with the nerf/fix of R&R they would also buff her other guns, ESPECIALLY Smoking Daisy.

[Kyavara]

Absolutly it is Hight Time nerf this weapon. Alicia have a overcheated mobility plus this weapon it is absolutely overcheated. It not depend on the level of the player. Cause a player level 20 strike level 122, 207, and 60 too easly so we will see only Alicia antagonist with this weapon and it kill the game.

[hirasugi]

I agree.  Personally I call the gun "Anatagonist's Vacation".  I swear anytime I strap on that nightmare as an Antag it reduces the difficulty of the match by at least 40% if not more.  Good weapon progression design in multiplayer games are all about "different but equal".  Rock N Roll is objectively better than any other gun she has in her arsenal.  There really is no reason not to use the gun all the time...and that is a problem

[LordDraco3]

I'm definitely sick of fighting it, but particularly tired of fighting Alicia in general. Per the other massive thread, my recommendations at this point, in order of preference, are to:

1. Nerf the jump. Alicia's mobility is what makes her so obnoxious in pvp. They nerfed Hans jetpack for this exact reason, it's time to do the same for her. Jump isn't as powerful against the perfect aim of AI, and 2 seconds is short as we all know from Ayana, so it's a change that will affect the problem area, pvp, more than people that play her in pve. Powerful guns are not as obnoxious when you can fight on the same level. Lycus can one-shot to death anything and we don't have "nerf Lycus" threads.

2. Make it fire more traditional projectiles that can be blocked by all shields. It's stupid that it eats through Lycus, Barrier, Shy, Drones, etc. Remove or reduce the bounce as it also pretty much invalidates cover.

3. change it from a buckshot shotgun, to firing slugs, make no other changes to the gun. It will require more aiming rather than spraying and praying while spinning around like a tornado flying up in the goddamn air. This WILL affect pve as it will not be able to hit nearly as many at once, so buff damage or let it crit, maybe give it more range but arc like the javelin, like a real slug would behave.

4. Don't nerf the damage. This seems to be almost always the universal answer to "fixing" strong weapons, but R&R is already pretty mediocre in high-MMR pve, when it can take the full mag to kill a wardog.

But hey on the plus side, whenever I antag with Lichtbogen I get an easy win! Everyone is so conditioned against R&R/Tolchok these days, they have forgotten how to fight against Kuzmann

Except that one time I had to fight a Barrier AND Shy in the same match. Hard counter, oof.

[Skyline]

Ha-ha-ha Draco mah boy...wtf with you? Have you taken off pink glasses and have put out the tongue from an ass of developers? Why to nerf R&R/Alicia stupid no cd ability... when average online in a steam of 30 people? When played 800 (steam only when i join dat game) and at this forum there were subjects about this crappy weapon (I took part in it) You shouted that R&R/Alicia is well balanced also everything that it is necessary for happiness to fix it a small bug. Ha-ha-ha What has changed? You at last have understood that to a game the end has come... as long you understood it. Better late than never, right? Normal developers would get rid of this R&R as soon as online has begun to fall, but to see that retard who has "create" this shit weapon holds a high post in Mercurysteam
All right will be enough ,what sense to mock, - I hope at you everything well at the time of Spacelords will or even better

Remember Peace is a Lie.

[MSE_Karen]

Hi Skyline,

Heated debate is something that can happen in the forums, but insulting other members is not allowed so, please, consider this your first warning.

If this conduct persists, you will earn a temporal ban.

We encourage you to keep the discussion civil, as you will find the feedback you receive will be much more rewarding.

Thank you.

[Skyline]

Strange feeling , ok .
Yes. Got it .  I accept this judgment and consider it as my first and final warning.
There will be no posts like this...anyway.

[TheBrentWoody]

The Problem with the RnR is that its Alicia's only easy gun to utilize, and it still suffers in high difficulty pve. Her kit with it is just REALLY good at PvP, because Mobility is awesomely powerful, and this gun has enough damage to deal with player health.  The big problem here is the design where characters cap out at 140 health, but enemies get upwards of 400. 

But yeah, the slug idea would fix it.

The not letting it shoot through cover/barrier effects would fix it.

[LordDraco3]

Right, I want it to remain viable in pve, while having less effectiveness in the pvp arena.

Most nerfs talk about damage, followed by range or falloff or ammo capacity, etc. None of these would really matter when fighting squishy players that you just jump float above spraying fire all over them, but they would all negatively affect pve.

[Level9Drow]

Watch this video, about 52 minutes in the Lycus antag goes against a team with an Alicia and R&R.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkzMqmP_y1s

This is a character with 140 health. Compare the damage of the R&R and how quickly it kills him, sheild be damn, compared to the Hive, Shae, and Kuzman. Even if we do make it so the R&R doesn't go through sheilds, pretend Lycus is ANY other character and look at the damage. ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY to ZERO in a mere second. BOOM BOOM BOOM, down. He even shoots him nonchalantly from the ground, not even jumping and destroys him with EASE and within a second. We can even hear the Antag start lamenting the Alicia player.

While I originally thought the jump nerf and letting shields stop it would be good enough, I changed my mind. The gun itself either needs a damage nerf or a nerf to it's range. I say range since people are worried about PvE. She doesn't need to be able to hit you from that far away AND kill you in a second. The Locals faction can do this but they are balanced by having 60 health. The range PLUS damage PLUS RoF is unreasonable. One of these needs a nerf. I'll be happy with any of them. Weather she needs a jump nerf as well, I'm not sure. Maybe? But he doesn't even kill her ONCE, not ONCE. She is virtually untouchable and unapproachable, even on the GROUND. So clearly the jump nerf won't be good enough, as this video clearly demonstrates.

Just my opinion, don't flame me. Just wanted you all to see this. I also encourage all of you to play her with the R&R. Antag with her, PvE with her, just really concentrate on her damage with the gun, it's range and RoF. Just get more familiar with it, please. I want you guys to think and compare it to all other weapons. And please be honest with your judgement.