[LordDraco3]

I was sad that we didn't get to fight to the death last night. It's been so long since we played together, Drow! (and I also knew 2 other people in your party)

perhaps a more appropriate nerf would be to the jump itself? Honestly it's just plain hard to HIT Alicia, and she has an easy time hitting you, so it's a losing DPS race. I know it's been suggested multiple times to just add a short cooldown timer to her jump, so she can't spam it. Like 2 seconds would at least give us a little bit of time to fight back once she lands, and would also make the "longer hang time" card more viable vs. the speed cards that currently dominate Alicia's loadouts (my own included).

I used R&R a couple nights ago because I saw raiders using both R&R and Tolchok, and my Tolchok wasn't equipped at the time. It was double agent, and I easily won on part 2 because Tolchok's player disconnected. Rak, Alicia, and Shae were all pretty easy pickings without the TRULY OP weapon there to fuck me up. Their Alicia was better than me since I never ever play her, but our MMR was exactly the same so I actually had some AI help, and prevailed.

Anyways, R&R antags don't really bother me, but as an antagonist, Raiders using R&R are awful to fight against. Any weapon that is considered "OP" for XYZ reasons is definitely multiplied when raiders use it, because AI is less reliable to help you, than human teammates. Tolchok and R&R just have to bum-rush antags and it's hard to counter them when you're basically alone.

[Level9Drow]

Well Triggerman, it's hard to criticize what you didn't read. And if we're invoking anecdotal evidence then we're equal on that front. And so they would cancel each other out. I don;t think you should read ALL the posts, just the one. That's where I really tried to lay the points out fairly.

LordDraco, me and Nana were pretty stoked to see you. I wanted to see what I could do after watching your videos. But the other player picked my main Ginebra, so I had to go with my Alicia who I just recently forged Smoking Daisy with, I won't touch R&R. I didn't do so great and was rusty with my CQC shell drop mechanics. We didn't stand a chance, but not because Hive is OP, so don't worry, no foul called here. We just realized were weren't gonna get anywhere with you, lol, so we surrendered before it dragged on for too long. We didn't want to waste too much time and it was funny because it was a unanimous dicision, even from the other two who were randoms. You seem to have a reputation that evokes fear from those who see your name, because that was the first time I had ever gotten an instant agreement for surrender on the first request from randoms. That made me laugh.

As far as nefing her jump. Well if we do this it will make her other guns even weakeer. I'm not saying this is not the solution, but I get what you're saying with the advantage she has, she's basically flying 90% of the time. This may be the reason why they made her guns initially not as dangerous? Because of the huge advantage? But if they do nerf the jump it should be a small cool down, like 2 seconds, just enough to allow some counterplay from her opponents. Then maybe the R&R won't be as much of an issue? But shooting while flying where you can't be CQCed and with that weapon is overpowering for whomever is at the other end, antag or raider. I think a really sick Harec could beat her, I saw Brents Harec and my jaw dropped, no one can ever say Herec sucks after watching his videos, and an Alicia with R&R could do very little against that. Maybe a Ginebra with Javalin? But the reach of R&R is so damn good that if she's far enough away not to hit you with it it's far enough away that it is REALLY hard to land a hit with Javalin. Most my experience with Gin verse R&R is just watching your friends die while you run away. Sure she can't kill me, but she doesn't have to in order to win.

 I think her other guns should be buffed a bit, your CD on jump is a good idea, but her other guns are still weak. Maybe both the gun buff and jump nerf would be good? I don't know. I'm just not going to bother with R&R antags anymore until then though. Not Alicia antags, let's be clear, but R&R antags.

EDIT: Oh you did say 2 seconds on cool down. Then yea, as you can see I agreed.

[XjabberwockieX]

I was sad that we didn't get to fight to the death last night. It's been so long since we played together, Drow! (and I also knew 2 other people in your party)

perhaps a more appropriate nerf would be to the jump itself? Honestly it's just plain hard to HIT Alicia, and she has an easy time hitting you, so it's a losing DPS race. I know it's been suggested multiple times to just add a short cooldown timer to her jump, so she can't spam it. Like 2 seconds would at least give us a little bit of time to fight back once she lands, and would also make the "longer hang time" card more viable vs. the speed cards that currently dominate Alicia's loadouts (my own included).

I used R&R a couple nights ago because I saw raiders using both R&R and Tolchok, and my Tolchok wasn't equipped at the time. It was double agent, and I easily won on part 2 because Tolchok's player disconnected. Rak, Alicia, and Shae were all pretty easy pickings without the TRULY OP weapon there to fuck me up. Their Alicia was better than me since I never ever play her, but our MMR was exactly the same so I actually had some AI help, and prevailed.

Anyways, R&R antags don't really bother me, but as an antagonist, Raiders using R&R are awful to fight against. Any weapon that is considered "OP" for XYZ reasons is definitely multiplied when raiders use it, because AI is less reliable to help you, than human teammates. Tolchok and R&R just have to bum-rush antags and it's hard to counter them when you're basically alone.

Something about your memory of this Double Agent match coincides with my memory of the SAME Double Agent match. With the disconnecting Kon, the better Alicia and the Rak, that I unfortunately was playing lol. You are correct sir, once we were in the open and the Kon disconnected it was pretty much a losing battle for us, especially since I brought the Shepard and not the DPY. I feel we had it pretty much in the bag up until that point though. That one stung a bit lol.

[LordDraco3]

I was sad that we didn't get to fight to the death last night. It's been so long since we played together, Drow! (and I also knew 2 other people in your party)

perhaps a more appropriate nerf would be to the jump itself? Honestly it's just plain hard to HIT Alicia, and she has an easy time hitting you, so it's a losing DPS race. I know it's been suggested multiple times to just add a short cooldown timer to her jump, so she can't spam it. Like 2 seconds would at least give us a little bit of time to fight back once she lands, and would also make the "longer hang time" card more viable vs. the speed cards that currently dominate Alicia's loadouts (my own included).

I used R&R a couple nights ago because I saw raiders using both R&R and Tolchok, and my Tolchok wasn't equipped at the time. It was double agent, and I easily won on part 2 because Tolchok's player disconnected. Rak, Alicia, and Shae were all pretty easy pickings without the TRULY OP weapon there to fuck me up. Their Alicia was better than me since I never ever play her, but our MMR was exactly the same so I actually had some AI help, and prevailed.

Anyways, R&R antags don't really bother me, but as an antagonist, Raiders using R&R are awful to fight against. Any weapon that is considered "OP" for XYZ reasons is definitely multiplied when raiders use it, because AI is less reliable to help you, than human teammates. Tolchok and R&R just have to bum-rush antags and it's hard to counter them when you're basically alone.

Something about your memory of this Double Agent match coincides with my memory of the SAME Double Agent match. With the disconnecting Kon, the better Alicia and the Rak, that I unfortunately was playing lol. You are correct sir, once we were in the open and the Kon disconnected it was pretty much a losing battle for us, especially since I brought the Shepard and not the DPY. I feel we had it pretty much in the bag up until that point though. That one stung a bit lol.

Oof yeah, I've been in your shoes with Sheppard Rak vs. R&R, it SUCKS that you become a sitting duck against an overpowering airborne opponent. Which I hate, because Sheppard is an extremely FUN gun to use, but R&R is virtually impossible to fight with it ;_; the only luck I had was on Breath of Hope, baiting Alicia into the tunnels. DPY is almost a must these days since it can down Alicia mid-jump with 2 shots, or 1 crit

Anyways yeah, I think a small cooldown that will allow opponents to engage CQC after a walljump (including loadouts that can't fight against the air, like Sheppard Rak), and a buff to her other weapons, would be nice. It's cringey to see Novera's single-digit damage numbers, and in the same match see it crit for 100's like that's not a reliable gun at all.

[XjabberwockieX]

Completely agree with the wall jump cooldown and a buff to her other guns to make them more viable.

[OoTRIGGAMANoO]

As much as I hate to touch Alicia in a negative way... (side note: I was in love with Australia as a child. MadMax blew my tiny mind. Crocodile Dundee, I saw in the theatre. One of my favorite bands is 12 Foot Ninja((look em up!)), Kylie Minogue was in Bio-Dome) but I will agree with the jump being better to mess with than the weapon. Maybe make the trails less visible, sound less repetitive, slightly tighter spread possibly... Ooh I feel dirty... If they really feel like it... Mess with the jump. Leave the rest. Well maybe a new even hotter costume... But yeah. The jump is what gets people. She IS an unfair advantage to Antags. I know for a fact, that is the very reason I still use her. Haven't been around that long I know. But I really wanna be here to stay. And for everyone to be good damn people. So rare these days. Is there a section for jokes and anecdotes here some where??

Think about this in your head...  Jeff Goldblum saying...

"Ahh, yes, yes. There is no 'I'- in team, yes, of course! But!.. There is after all indeed an 'I' in... Antagonist!"-NOT a real quote from Mr. Goldblum. Thank you and goodnight ladies and germs!

Funnsies! Xoxo

[Level9Drow]

LOL today I watched R&R reach Schneider when he was cutting down the beam, she didn't even need to jump. MASSIVE damage as well, HUGE spread, at the end of the range especially. BAM BAM BAM BAM RAPID successions, fantastic RoF.

Was in a party with other people well over level 60 few hundreds, and a level 30 R&R wasted us, LOLOL. OMG MSE what the hell are you thinking? Get a grip with your balancing an neuter this bitch quick.

I was using my Javalin today and was trying to kill multiple adds charging me, I couldn't get them down in time, too many, I was killed by a Hades Fatty, he lunges 100 feet as I transformed and grabbed me, 40% speed card wasn't fast enough? I was thinking how much Javelin sucks, but you know what would have done the job and cleared out all of them? R&R, I've seen it. I thought, "I wish Ginebra had the R&R" Then it made me realize how much Javelin really sucks. If R&R can do high damage at far and close range and shoots multiple bullets in a wide spread why the FUCK does javelin not do damage close up with ONE goddamn arrow? And I have ti actually aim and move slowly, I'm not flying in the air.

I was using Cookie in close range and lamenting how I could block an area from adds coming in but couldn't get around my own explosions because I would hurt myself. But you know what would have provided area denial and then allowed passage? R&R

Struggling with a mob on Weapon from the Past with Hive? You may have extra health but the 3 mooks stun lock you so the fatty can grab you. Wish you had a weapon that did MORE damage than the Wasp and provided mass amounts of damage to a wide area while in the safety from CQC, oh yea! R&R would do that.

Snipers getting you down? Need to take them out fast at a distance without needing accuracy? R&R, you can follow her while she tries to escape by flying over the enemies she called to protect her. Don't even have to aim, down her in 2 shots.

Need to kill a boss at a safe distance but don't have good accuracy? But want to also do massive damage at a rapid rat of fire? R&R, you don't even have to worry about the enemies around you. YOU CAN FLY!!! LOL

Need to kill Raiders who can only move on a two dimensional plane while you fly over them? You don't even need to aim, hell you can hit 2 or 3 of them and down them in 2 or 3 shots. Then the mooks finish the job or you could come down from the sky back into the dander of CQC and finish all of them and collect their Aleph.

See some level 150s to 200s and you are only level 40? How will you kill those guys? OH, I got it! R&R, don't even have to get near them, you can hit them from a quarter of the map away and at that distance it's even EASIER to hit them because of the spread. Look at them trying to shoot you, LOL. Don't they know you can just land and regenerate? Look at them trying beat your DPS you while 50% of their shots miss you because you're FLYING and ALL, fucking ALL, of your shots are hitting them AND for WAAAYYYYYYYYY more damage then they are hitting you with. No contest.

Look at stupid Harec, LOL. He has to try and aim at you while moving slow. All you have to do is fly and shoot one shot and hit the 20 feet area around him with R&R. OH he's on the wall now? You can still reach him, LOL. AND do massive damage, unlike Konstantins who has to clip him for 20% of hist bullets at that range, WHILE moving slow, giving Harec just enough time to head shot him. Can't head shot the flying blue haired super girl. (Brent could, but he's the exception, not the rule)

This game is so easy. Raiders must all suck, why do they all suck? They need to learn to aim better, because you sure in the hell don't need to. They need to get better weapons, LOL wait...none of them are better than R&R, you forgot that didn't you. They should fly like you, wait...THEY CAN'T!!!! LOLOL You are in 3 dimensional space while they are the 2D shooting gallery below.

Look at Lycus, he thinks his shield can protect him, and you're too high to take damage from his short range weapon. You'll just fly and shoot through his shield, what a dummy.

Wait WHAT? A Raider actually wounded you? O_O (*checks if pigs are flying or is Ragnarok is at hand...nope) What will you do now?!?! Oh, you'll just fire your multi beam superman eye lasers at them and out DPS them. Look, they died and you are fine now and healing like Wolverine and already  flying away looking for your next easy target, can't out DPS your R&R, they must suck. They really need to learn to "GIT GUD" like you are.

/S

Think for a moment if you gave the R&R to Ginebra or Hans or Rak. Think if EVERY character was able to get the R&R, actually. Why use anything else? Rang, Damage, RoF, Spread AND it cleaves through multiple targets AND goes through shields and barriers... you don't even have to try with this weapon. Add the ability to fly and regenerate on top of that. 

Goddamn what an egregious error MSE, what were you guys thinking. MORE internal testing please, this was such a horrible mistake. You have one gun that can do EVERYTHING except hit a fly across the map able to be used by a character that can fly. *sarcastic applaud* Awesome job!

It is so hard keeping a positive attitude moving forward. I'm trying, I even did the foolish thing again and attempted to fight her. AGAIN. Level 30 i think she was. I thought that would make a difference. And it didn't. I was Loaht with Cookie, There was a Kuzman with Lichbogen, a Hive and some other poor fucker who though being level 100+ mattered against an R&R at level 30ish. We couldn't touch her half the time. She could hit us all the time. We were on No Reservations. I can't keep doing this. I need to start listening to my intuition when I see an R&R and suicide and save myself 30 fucking minutes of forgone conclusions of shit rewards for trying. I tried. Can't say I didn't try.

[OoTRIGGAMANoO]

Can anyone even take this seriously anymore? 5000 word essays of trash talk over here(that I refuse to read all of. Just ridiculous). I don't like to say this but if you hate it so much quit. I doubt MSE will miss one player. Especially with all the new future players about to come in. It is hard to believe you don't just have a vendetta against Alicia. She's golden. Once I hit max forge I'll level up the rest of her BP's and try them out but I get the feeling she'll still own regardless. And why the heck would you use cookie against her? Lol that sounds like failure for sure. Gotta keep her at a distance. Attack her while she's attacking. Hide behind whatever when needed. (I doubt I need to tell you that but I just did) I'm not saying it's easy but what Antag match is? I'll keep saying what I tell my buddy all the time... If you play this game for fun and the love of it, it is so much better and you won't get so butt hurt over a loss or 2.
 I'm gonna go see if I can't win or lose a couple right now.

[LordDraco3]

Loaht is hard countered by Alicia in general, just like Sheppard Rak. This is why my issue is more with her constantly being airborne, rather than the gun itself. I'm getting sick of it too, but I could deal with the weapon if I could just close in on her when she came down. But they always float near cover or a wall and up they go again for another round of shooting

[XjabberwockieX]

Once I hit max forge I'll level up the rest of her BP's and try them out but I get the feeling she'll still own regardless.

 U might be surprised just how much weaker the rest of her guns are overall. Its why everyone chooses R&R, but hey, I'm not about to tell someone how to spend their gold. Just dont expect the same results anybody can get from spamming the R&R, her other guns just don't cut it.

[Level9Drow]

Triggerman, you can't SEE who the antag is before you pick, dummy. They can see what YOU pick only. What do you mean "why did I use Coockie"? I dunno, because I figured it should be ok to play a character and gun you enjoy? And Every team shouldn't be comprised of characters specifically to counter ONE GUN in the game? Fuck me right? "Why did I choose Cookie against her" Get out of here with that. You should know better that to ask a question like that, you aren't a spring chicken to the game.

"Can anyone even take this seriously anymore?"  What are we in a court room? Are like a lawyer talking to a jury? Really? Everyone else seems to have some good feedback on the issue of Alicia and R&R, many still feel it's overpowered some have other ways of fixing the issue. You're on an island by yourself man, no jury there with you.

"I won't read a his post and claim it's an essay, but I'll sure open my mouth and bellow out drivel." If you can't read it you don't have any legitimacy to your response, because you AREN'T responding, you didn't read it, you don't know what to respond to. You're just attacking, not offering any insight, new ideas or countering. Stop being lazy go read the 7 points of page 6. I'm not tooeasy, I have some semblance of writing etiquette, it isn't a Borg ship made of words.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and challenge you to do something. Go antag with Alicia and use R&R, max that shit out at forge level 25. Do that and tell me your experience. Don't come back and be a contrarian and lie just to win a point. Tell me how many games you win and lose and how easy it was compared to other characters and weapons. Card her with flotation speed or duration with one of the epimorphosis like most people do and see how it goes.

Draco, if they nerf her jump the have to buff her other three guns, they need it badly. Constantly jumping with her feels good gameplay-wise, so while I'm not disagreeing with you, I feel kind of sad if there is a nerf to floatation. But right now she pretty much is the only flying character in the game with no cool down. I think it's messed up one weapon would mean her special nerfed. But I'll take ANYTHING at this point, to be honest.

[TheBrentWoody]

So, really they just need to make the gun shoot bullets and not damage through cover. Let the barrier guns protect against it, and it should be fine.

[Level9Drow]

So, really they just need to make the gun shoot bullets and not damage through cover. Let the barrier guns protect against it, and it should be fine.

Yes, that's a problem, but the other is it's a gun that is TOO easy to aim and hit with good damage able to be fired from the safety of flying. Even if they did what you suggest, there's only Lycus who can counter her, and a gun for Hive and Mikah. That still leaves no counter play from any other character outside of a Tolchock.

The more I think about her flying the more I realize why in their original iteration of weapons they wanted to make her damage oputput less than other characters to balance the fact that she's untouchable. It sucks to do low damage, so they gave her a powerful weapon. Which in theory is a good idea, but they forgot about the fact that she can fly.

I wouldn't have any complaint of the gun if it was a beam. This would, like other heroes, mean she would have to be more skilled as she jumped and shot at you. The hit rate would be a lot less and this would allow a back and forth between the Alicia and her opponent to occur. As in, an actual fight or competition, as in an actual game between two opponents. Right now it's not a back and forth, it's just, Alicia jumps in the sky and makes it rain undogeable laser beams, you just have to eat it. Unless you are Gin and can run for your life, you have to accept you are going to get hit and, in most cases, lose the dps race with her.

I think the barrier solution you bring is deffinitely a good one, but I don't believe it solves the problem for other characters. You godda remember, this isn'tOverwatch, I can't go back and switch my "hero" to another in light of my opponents choice in mid battle. I am stuck with what I choose, and so there should be SOME counter play with at least half the roster against her. Currently we are reduced to unique small hand picked situations in where she can be countered.

I dunno, they are probably going to do something about this anyways. I have a good feeling they will in August. I need to be patient, it just sucks for now when I get an R&R antag. I choose to ignore the issue and just accept and trust the developers, but then these situations re-open the "wound" all over again. I'm just sick of that gun. I get killed by other antags all the time and it sucks, but I feel like I could have dome something about it, or that it's ME that sucked and made a mistake in that instance. But with R&R, I just shake my head and roll my eyes.

Thanks for dropping some feedback Brent, sick Harec, by the way. I love your vids on twitch.

[LordDraco3]

My frame of reference and argument for nerfing her jump: a 2 second cooldown is not long, it would not be a hard nerf to the character in most situations. We already have an ability with a 2 second cooldown-- Ayana's hook-- and we all know it can pretty much be spammed and many people wanted it to have more of a cooldown back when she was first added (but they nerfed the range instead).

2 seconds in pvp though is enough to engage in CQC or have a chance to shoot her on the ground, so you don't have to compensate for all XYZ axis to land a shot on her. Also look at Hans, who has a delay on starting up his jetpack. He has a freakin' JETPACK and he can't use it to escape CQC, but Alicia can literally just jump away from all of her pvp CQC worries? AI still seems to grab her from the air anyways due to some weird collision detection, but that's neigh impossible to do as a player who is so much squishier and less in numbers than the AI.

I'm sick of fighting the weapon, but I am more sick of fighting someone who's constantly airborne more than anything. She's just so damn hard to hit when they constantly spin around like a tornado while slowly falling, then when they land up they go again. Hard push guns like Tolchok at the only reliable counter, due to knocking her out of the air, and every other push gun is projectile, tolchok being the only hitscan. Ingrid doesn't really count due to how ineffective it is as a push utility gun.

If it shot a slug instead of buckshot I do agree it would lower the hit rate and thus be easier to fight against.

[OoTRIGGAMANoO]

So here's now what I think... Alicia is THE character that gets the new players on board. She is tough right off the bat. It is crazy that if you try for R&R it never shows but if you're low level, BOOM! There it is. And then you don't need another BP for her for a long time. No one likes to be past a lvl anything and lose to her. But without her there would be no new players who stick around. By the time someone hits lvl 50 they should know most maps. The longer you play the less likely you are to use Alicia... Doesn't change the fact that low levels can eat you alive. So I really think the "MMR" is to blame. Why ever would a player over lvl 100 play with a lvl 1 no matter what?? That is where everyone seems to get pissed. They think there's no way this 35 could beat my 150, but then they do and disillusionment sets in. Why am I playing this?? Um, cause it's fun as hell and all lvl's have a chance if they want... I don't Antag with her as I've stated numerous times but I also don't lose to her as much as I read about on here. I know she can be beat and ya don't even have to fight fire with fire. I wish this would end. I got into a 2 shot crawl from Lycos and the Pepper Pot and various other weapons in the past. Schlueder comes to mind... I Use that a lot from downtown and put Antags in a crawl so my team can take care of the rest. If you're not hot doggin and play as a team, no Antag can stop you. Member... No "I" in team, only "AntagonIst"    xoxo