[Level9Drow]

*sigh* tooeasy, I started to read your post up there, and I was begining to form a reply while reading and then I realized how long it was. May I give you some constructive criticism? Make your posts shorter and more succinct. This is coming from a person who ALSO has large post. But, Break it up into paragraphs that stress different points and segways. People can read larger post (well most people) if they are in bite sized pieces, and it flows better, like commercial breaks to a long show.

I'm at work, man. I can't read that novel.

[XjabberwockieX]

This is an interesting topic for me because 2 months ago my response would have been very different. At this point I do NOT think there are too many antags, and I believe that while antags can turn away new players, the broken MMR system is more responsible for alot of the rage quitting.
  Before "Spacelords" I was very much a 'Story-driven single player' gamer. I never got involved in mmo's or moba's and I avoided most things with pvp or any kind of invasion system. I cant explain why, but I didnt ever want to test myself against people who preferred that kind of gameplay and I believed I would surely lose if I ever was forced by a game to participate in that kind of mode.
  Over time though on "Spacelords" that started to change. The more I faced antagonists the more I began to enjoy it, the more I raised the level of my own game. Before I knew it, my teams were winning the battles alot more than we were losing them. Even though the rewards are diminished in matches with antagonists, for me, the sense of satisfaction trumps all the other details.
  I had about 5 or 6 matches in a row without an antagonist the other night, I knew exactly what I was getting. I knew my mmr was 60 and that my team was similarly leveled so I knew where the adds would be and I knew they would have 400 hp. I was actually WANTING an antagonist, and like Draco said, if I lost, I wanted them again because I believed things would be different the next time around.
  Keep in mind, nearly all of these antagonists will turn around two matches later and be on your squad and prove to be great, supportive teammates. I am better at this game because of the antagonists, and while I remain a 'peaceful antagonist' to earn antagonist affinity, I relish the opportunity to not just compete with the great ones who have helped me raise my game, but to send them with their head down back to Uras for a lecture about their failure.
  Fix the MMR to provide a better balance when one side is much higher or lower than the other, but keep the antagonists coming.

[Deathprize]

You are right about the MMR being the largest cause of frustration. However today I had seven or eight matches in a row against the same guy. He was lowering MMR so wasn't trying to win, but still eight back to back games is a bit much.

If there was a large difference in MMR and the antagonist wasn't lowering MMR this would of been seven or so losses in a row for one side!

[Level9Drow]

jabberwocki, I completely commend your experience and wouldn't say anything to take that away for you. And because there are players playing for different reasons, this is why it should be optional. Give the choice to the players. Those who want to PvP choose it, those who don't avoid it and those who dance on the fence and are curious to test themselves from time to time, but not all the time can do so when they want to and stop when they've had enough.

I play the game for progression. I don't mind a challenge, but anything that slows or stops my progressions is, TO ME, a waste of time and useless. I'm grinding gold and faction, and when I get an antag who makes it so I only get 500 gold for 30 minutes I take it deeply personal and get very angry and resentful. I feel to accommodate everyone the best option would be to GIVE the option.

Players who choose to opt into PvP would receive increased rewards on top of what the normal rating system gives them. This incentivizes PvP. Those who like a slower and steady pace with less stress and more CONTROL of their time and progression would opt out of PvP. I don't mind grinding. I find I still learn new things against AI all the time and haven't even tried out all the characters. Wouldn't DARE try a character I've never played before with an antag. "Play offline." you say. Sorry, no rewards. Waste of time. Counterproductive towards progression. So I'm forced to play only a few optimal characters with maxed forged weapons for fear of being invaded. It's a shame I can't try new characters, as it could potentially hinder progression if an antag came in.

Warframe did it, and are very successful. I don't think it is a bad idea to follow their lead.

[Prism]

Level9Drow, your reasons for progression and how an antag is detrimental to that are basically the same reasons my friends refuse to try this game with me. They take it a step further though by generally seeing PvP as a hindrance or a series of setbacks as opposed to another layer of depth.

One friend specifically said that the game looked cool but as soon as he saw 4v1 he said nope and backed out of the store page.

I'm torn because I like the antag system but I too feel frustrated when you spend a lot of time playing a match to walk away with next to nothing because I too am trying to get better stuff/more characters.

I like your idea of opting in for PvP to get even greater rewards and I'd like to add that, even if the rewards are far more limited than a pure PvE or PvP setup via matchmaking, you should still have the option to solo and still gain something more than one time. Simply having more options and styles of play will help more people gravitate to the game.

[TheBrentWoody]

Well, if the population increases with the F2P model then we can expect a lot of different game modes to be available.  You can split up a community of 10000 a lot easier than splitting one up of 40.

[Level9Drow]

Yea, Brent, that's what I'm hoping. Otherwise the community will be to small.

[dicjones]

I played a game tonight because I wanted a blueprint. The antagonist beat us, but not by much. It made my blueprint chance 25%. I didn’t get it. You know what I said to myself...that was a fun match, sooo close.

[Level9Drow]

There's actually not a lot of antags anymore. As soon as they made it no longer necessary for weapons it turns out most people prefer to play as raider. Go figure.

As far as your comment goes, wait until you see how rare and nearly impossible it is to get a BP.

[dicjones]

I won’t be able to play the game enough to worry about anything other than trying to have fun. If I get a bp I get a bp.

Oh, and I hated the loot cave

[LordDraco3]

Yeah I've barely seen any antags lately, and almost all of them have been friendly. Only one that stands out as trying to fight, also had a massively lower MMR than my team so we eventually surrendered on short fused because we wouldn't even pass the rock in the middle without getting 1 shot by the tanks, or torn apart by wardogs with 500 health.

I would play antag more but my MMR has been so high that it takes too long to get into a game. I don't care about what rewards it gives or what affinity is needed, or that it's not longer forced for weapons, my options to play are:
1. wait up to an HOUR for a match (longest i've waited before giving up) that lasts 10-20 minutes
2. Join a team of other friends in a party and have 0 wait time between matches and just plat constantly.

Removing the requirement doesn't stop me from antagging. The inability to play is what prohibits me.

[Social_Sin]

This game can't split up PvP and PvE until they actually get a player base even then it will go back to seeming incredibly small.

I like playing as Antag, if the enemy teams lol does equal mine when added up I'll either not spawn in or dick around as an Aleph generator for them.

But if your lvl is 20+ I'm playing the game as was intended. This game was ADVERTISED as an asymmetrical 4v1, the fact that you can get a match WITHOUT an antagonist is lucky/good enough as is.

I get that some people don't want to deal with PvP but that's like grabbing dead by daylight and being angry that their is a killer in your game.

Antagonists make the game way more interesting rather than rinse and repeat of the same missions. It at least throws a little thinking into the mix when not dealing with a.i

All of that said however I do agree with people's MMR complaints and I still stand by the fact that if you are in a "mentor" match an Antag shouldn't be able to join. I'm a competent player and can deal with an Antag either through avoidance or clever attacking, lvl 1's and 3's can't though and THAT gets frustrating because I want to help but I don't have the time to help with the mission and Antag, speaking of, jfc MS allow training BEFORE finishing a mission 5 times for new players like I don't know what's going on over there but you guys do know the concept of training is to get a handle of the level BEFORE doing it yea?

[Level9Drow]

Are you kidding me? with how precious and rare blueprints are now antagonists are hated even more now than ever. I have only one chance in a 48 hour or more period to get a blueprint and this son of a bitch ruins that for me? Before it was just something that pissed you off for a while, now you get FUCKED for multiple days. The antagonist can literally take away the reason to even jump online and play. When your BP chance is ruined I notice many players just leave and don't log back in until they get another BP mission, which could be multiple days. I lot of people I have grouped with and were advocates of the antag system and didn't share my criticism of it, people who were previously optimistic and gentle natures are now pissed with the BP system and hate antagonists. I don't feel a sense of victory either because now they feel the way I do, but a sadness because as easy as I am to piss off, the system was able to piss these otherwise friendly and competitive people off now. It's sad seeing them change in this way because of how hard gated the BP are now.

I peaceful antag, and when I saw how pitifully low the rewards for losing as an antag I ALMOST thought I may have to play as antag, as much as I would be ruining the other person's day. But when I saw how the BP system worked I though to myself I could NEVER be that much of a fucking ass hole as to ruin the BP for someone else, it happened to me and it was horrible and rage inducing. So despite the reduced rewards I still peaceful antag to lower MMR and get affinity, because I'm not that much of a dick.

Until they fix this horrid blueprint situations I feel forced PvP is even more of an egregious mistake. Then I will just see forced PvP as a necessary evil, right now it's just plain evil.

[Deathprize]

I feel it's even worse when you are a better player. The moment an antagonist pops up you know it's a loss as your MMR score is likely to be at least 10% higher, and the god bots roll out. Lucky if you even get out of the spawn area on some levels.

If you needs to win multiple times and there are a lot of antagonists when you play bad luck. Game for the blueprint and an antagonist pray the 15% drop chance after the kicking you receive is enough.

A PvP system that works more like a dice roll does not a fun game make. Wins should never be determined by the % at the top right of the screen.

[Social_Sin]

Are you kidding me? with how precious and rare blueprints are now antagonists are hated even more now than ever. I have only one chance in a 48 hour or more period to get a blueprint and this son of a bitch ruins that for me? Before it was just something that pissed you off for a while, now you get FUCKED for multiple days. The antagonist can literally take away the reason to even jump online and play. When your BP chance is ruined I notice many players just leave and don't log back in until they get another BP mission, which could be multiple days. I lot of people I have grouped with and were advocates of the antag system and didn't share my criticism of it, people who were previously optimistic and gentle natures are now pissed with the BP system and hate antagonists. I don't feel a sense of victory either because now they feel the way I do, but a sadness because as easy as I am to piss off, the system was able to piss these otherwise friendly and competitive people off now. It's sad seeing them change in this way because of how hard gated the BP are now.

I peaceful antag, and when I saw how pitifully low the rewards for losing as an antag I ALMOST thought I may have to play as antag, as much as I would be ruining the other person's day. But when I saw how the BP system worked I though to myself I could NEVER be that much of a fucking ass hole as to ruin the BP for someone else, it happened to me and it was horrible and rage inducing. So despite the reduced rewards I still peaceful antag to lower MMR and get affinity, because I'm not that much of a dick.

Until they fix this horrid blueprint situations I feel forced PvP is even more of an egregious mistake. Then I will just see forced PvP as a necessary evil, right now it's just plain evil.

Nah not kidding you,I already alter the way the game was meant to be played by just not spawning or by acting as an Aleph farm last I get blasted in msgs afterward for playing the game.

Don't hate the antagonist, hate the devs and their rewards/MMR system. As someone said if you don't like how things are currently toucan easily play something else until it is if it ever is.

Because it really seems your issue is with how the rewards and MMR get skewed/more difficult when an Antag invades which is a legitimate complaint but you overall just really seem to not want to deal with PVP at all and that's fine, nothing wrong with that but the game was always advertised as the 4v1 with the possibility of an invasion.  I knew that before downloading the game and I accept it, loss or not.

As Draco said the Xbox issue is going to be at the forefront as it should be. What I think would help alleviate some of this constant thread salt would be if a member of MS actually chimed in. This is the only official forum I have been on where I haven't seen a CM or dev response. As someone who has done PR and CM the lack of communication is surprising and a bit disappointing.

So focus on the issues at hand,it's not the Antag it's the devs.

I almost want to stop being this "nice antag" because it seems to be expected now which is just dumb IMO.