[Level9Drow]

As long as forced PvP exist then so will instant surrenders, suisiding, feedin and disconnecting. Simple fact, there isn't any way around this. The quicker PvEers get get out of a antag game the quicker they can go back to making rewards again in this already trickling reward system. Antagonists are SO aggrivating and a total waste of time, there is no incentive to engage.

I'm so sorry to tell you wonderfully creative devs, this is not going to change. It just won't.

EDIT: Well no point in sulking about it. There has to be some preventative plan on my part. So I pose a question for those who are antagonists, not a mean one. What missions do you queue for the most? Or better yet, what missions favor antagonists the most? Some of us want to know what to NEVER queue for if we can help it. It would be useful information for many of us.

Edit: So here is what I got so far (DO NOT QUEUE FOR THESE MISSIONS AS A RAIDER IF YOOU WANT TO PROGRESS IN THE GAME!!):

1. Fistful of San: because of the MASSIVE failure of MSE, the antagonists DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO ENGAGE THE RAIDER!!!! It's a free handout for antags, they just have to kill the fragile fucking old man. They need to give him about 5 times more health. We were kicking the shit out of this Shae and she ignired us and just killed the old man WITH EASE!!! (and I like this missions. Shame the antagonists dictate what missions I can choose. GREAT SYSTEM!!!)

Will update this list as feedback comes in.

[Hyugga]

Or an even better question , when you play antagonist and win do you feel any joy ? Knowing that you screw up people of rewards and getting scrap in return . I played like 3 times antagonist and did not feel any happyness after.

[ArnoldCat]

As long as forced PvP exist then so will instant surrenders, suisiding, feedin and disconnecting. Simple fact, there isn't any way around this. The quicker PvEers get get out of a antag game the quicker they can go back to making rewards again in this already trickling reward system. Antagonists are SO aggrivating and a total waste of time, there is no incentive to engage.

I'm so sorry to tell you wonderfully creative devs, this is not going to change. It just won't.

EDIT: Well no point in sulking about it. There has to be some preventative plan on my part. So I pose a question for those who are antagonists, not a mean one. What missions do you queue for the most? Or better yet, what missions favor antagonists the most? Some of us want to know what to NEVER queue for if we can help it. It would be useful information for many of us.

Edit: So here is what I got so far (DO NOT QUEUE FOR THESE MISSIONS AS A RAIDER IF YOOU WANT TO PROGRESS IN THE GAME!!):

1. Fistful of San: because of the MASSIVE failure of MSE, the antagonists DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO ENGAGE THE RAIDER!!!! It's a free handout for antags, they just have to kill the fragile fucking old man. They need to give him about 5 times more health. We were kicking the shit out of this Shae and she ignired us and just killed the old man WITH EASE!!! (and I like this missions. Shame the antagonists dictate what missions I can choose. GREAT SYSTEM!!!)

Will update this list as feedback comes in.

By the way, thank you for not killing me in horrible indescriptible ways the last time you invade my match.

But even knowing you will not spawn i was like:

[LoganMaze]

As long as forced PvP exist then so will instant surrenders, suisiding, feedin and disconnecting. Simple fact, there isn't any way around this. The quicker PvEers get get out of a antag game the quicker they can go back to making rewards again in this already trickling reward system. Antagonists are SO aggrivating and a total waste of time, there is no incentive to engage.

I'm so sorry to tell you wonderfully creative devs, this is not going to change. It just won't.

EDIT: Well no point in sulking about it. There has to be some preventative plan on my part. So I pose a question for those who are antagonists, not a mean one. What missions do you queue for the most? Or better yet, what missions favor antagonists the most? Some of us want to know what to NEVER queue for if we can help it. It would be useful information for many of us.

Edit: So here is what I got so far (DO NOT QUEUE FOR THESE MISSIONS AS A RAIDER IF YOOU WANT TO PROGRESS IN THE GAME!!):

1. Fistful of San: because of the MASSIVE failure of MSE, the antagonists DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO ENGAGE THE RAIDER!!!! It's a free handout for antags, they just have to kill the fragile fucking old man. They need to give him about 5 times more health. We were kicking the shit out of this Shae and she ignired us and just killed the old man WITH EASE!!! (and I like this missions. Shame the antagonists dictate what missions I can choose. GREAT SYSTEM!!!)

Will update this list as feedback comes in.

i agree that they should buff the old man in fistfull of sand, i actually killed him by mistake with kuzmann, his weapon and ability are made to made to damage multiple enemies, anything i did would harm him. He ended up dying because of aleph explosion upon my death and one of the raiders.

[B30]

Oh, I know that too. After only a short time, after discovering him - BOOOM (one big Raider and Antag aleph explosion) and the mumbling old gramps was blown to pieces.

[Deathprize]

Yeah fistful of sand blows with an antagonist which is a shame as it's one of the best levels. Everyone queues it for antagonist though as it's a stupidly easy win.

Surely they have the data to show there is an unreasonable amount of antagonist wins on that level, due to everyone just killing the old man. The fact some don't even spawn until you find him says everything.

Like at the moment if a Harec antagonist enters you may as well quit as the protector will die about 30 seconds after you find him.

In the original build of the game you couldn't do this, so I don't know why it's been added in. Granted it is possible if you spawn kill them every single time, but just highly unlikely.

[LordDraco3]

Antags that kill the protector are clowns. I do not purposefully do that, and berate those that do. And when I see people brag about it, I'll tell them off. It's fine to break his shield to impede progress, but to purposefully kill a known weak objective is low and borderline exploitative.

MSE definitely needs to fix the protector situation. Make him have a lot more health, but maybe not be healed when the shield is restored, so he can still be killed but would have to be whittled down over time through multiple assaults. He should also react better to damage, or raiders should be able to push him, as stationary AoE/DoT weapons just eat his health in seconds with literally NO counter. Warm, Cookie, and Makilium will kill him in 1 clip, no questions asked. I debated naming this exact strategy, but MSE NEEDS TO KNOW. Those weapons don't need a nerf, but the protector himself needs to be fixed.

Anyways, back to topic.... I personally queue for everything except Enemy Within. The queue takes too long to be picky, but I still hate that one mission. Ever since the spacelords update though, average MMR has dropped.... i'm about 55% which I'd say is average. But now I fight teams 13, 16, 19% lower than me, almost every other match. I am fighting teams in the 30's and 40's. I am still beating them, assuming I can spawn (because antag spawning is BROKEN) when normally that handicap would be impossible to overcome. Average player skill/MMR has definitely dropped.

And yes, I do like to win as antag. Hyugga can stop the virtue signalling bullshit for the 100th time. We don't play it specifically for the motivation of "reducing Raider rewards" nor is it the fault of the player for playing the intended mechanic as it exists. Last thread you did this got deleted by the OP because I got sick of this attitude and went off.

[Tekato]

Antags that kill the protector are clowns. I do not purposefully do that, and berate those that do. And when I see people brag about it, I'll tell them off. It's fine to break his shield to impede progress, but to purposefully kill a known weak objective is low and borderline exploitative.

MSE definitely needs to fix the protector situation. Make him have a lot more health, but maybe not be healed when the shield is restored, so he can still be killed but would have to be whittled down over time through multiple assaults. He should also react better to damage, or raiders should be able to push him, as stationary AoE/DoT weapons just eat his health in seconds with literally NO counter. Warm, Cookie, and Makilium will kill him in 1 clip, no questions asked. I debated naming this exact strategy, but MSE NEEDS TO KNOW. Those weapons don't need a nerf, but the protector himself needs to be fixed.

Anyways, back to topic.... I personally queue for everything except Enemy Within. The queue takes too long to be picky, but I still hate that one mission. Ever since the spacelords update though, average MMR has dropped.... i'm about 55% which I'd say is average. But now I fight teams 13, 16, 19% lower than me, almost every other match. I am fighting teams in the 30's and 40's. I am still beating them, assuming I can spawn (because antag spawning is BROKEN) when normally that handicap would be impossible to overcome. Average player skill/MMR has definitely dropped.

And yes, I do like to win as antag. Hyugga can stop the virtue signalling bullshit for the 100th time. We don't play it specifically for the motivation of "reducing Raider rewards" nor is it the fault of the player for playing the intended mechanic as it exists. Last thread you did this got deleted by the OP because I got sick of this attitude and went off.

I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. These antagonist are also playing like you "as intended", you can criticize them all you want but you're part of that community. They can't just give the old man more health it will make the mission too easy for raiders that don't have an antagonist. Everyone is forced into this pvp bs and most people you fight probably didnt want to fight you in the first place they just accepted it and went with it. It doesn't change the fact that they had no choice over it just because you sent them a nice message after. This whole system is stupid but we just have to accept it I guess since it doesn't look like mse is  changing anything about it.

[Righteous Flame]

I'm not going to be any help on this.  When I do play, the pattern is:

Queue for gold missions as raider for roughly 90-120 seconds.
Queue for all missions as raider for roughly 90-120 seconds.
Queue for all missions as raider/antag for 60 seconds.
Go play offline.

Person that I pick as raider/antag is determined by a D30.

[BlaZeMaN]

Honestly , with such a heated battleground kinda vibe going on here , I couldn't give two shits about either side . Whilst I can respect people playing antagonist as intended (without necessarily being an obvious dick) and understand the frustration that lots of PvEers face , I think the lot of you are taking it a bit too far .
Well , I'll just leave this here , because , I'm going to send to MSE a response regarding the rewards you get for both situations as well as try to get to reach a middle ground with this instead of getting this frequent whining from the forums . Also , don't misunderstand . I know some of you are probably looking towards a middle ground with this but if we're honest with each other there are more productive things than needless whining about the game we like/ want to like even more aren't there ?

Cheers .

[Agent-Z46]

This debate has honestly been done to death at this point. Literally in my short time being on these forums I have enough material to know where each and every forum member stands.

[Level9Drow]

Much respect for Draco, I hope MSE will create a better game for PvPers as well. Especially ones like this. I will never go back on this belief.

@Agent-Z46
This issue will never stop so long as it's forced. There will be a steady influx of people drawn to the PvE aspects of the game, new players, from Warframe and Overwatch (those who liked Uprising and Retribution) who find out this game has a strong squad PvE mission aspect to it. These players will inevitably get invaded, early at low levels unfortunately and usually by a person who is 5 times their level, and so will inevitably come to these forums to vent their dissatisfaction. Each a new anecdotal situation, brand new. And each coming from a gaming community abroad where PvP and PvE hybrid games always give you the option, even the most hard core games like Dark Souls give you the option.

And the old players, like me, will continue to support their posts. MSE has EARNED this flack. I don't mean this in a malicious or vindictive way towards them, but in a matter of fact kine of mere consequence kind of way. They chose forced PvP, this is going to happen. Why not get mad at an earthquake for spilling your drink or the sun for being hot in summer while your at it?

[BlaZeMaN]

Much respect for Draco, I hope MSE will create a better game for PvPers as well. Especially ones like this. I will never go back on this belief.

@Agent-Z46
This issue will never stop so long as it's forced. There will be a steady influx of people drawn to the PvE aspects of the game, new players, from Warframe and Overwatch (those who liked Uprising and Retribution) who find out this game has a strong squad PvE mission aspect to it. These players will inevitably get invaded, early at low levels unfortunately and usually by a person who is 5 times their level, and so will inevitably come to these forums to vent their dissatisfaction. Each a new anecdotal situation, brand new. And each coming from a gaming community abroad where PvP and PvE hybrid games always give you the option, even the most hard core games like Dark Souls give you the option.

And the old players, like me, will continue to support their posts. MSE has EARNED this flack. I don't mean this in a malicious or vindictive way towards them, but in a matter of fact kine of mere consequence kind of way. They chose forced PvP, this is going to happen. Why not get mad at an earthquake for spilling your drink or the sun for being hot in summer while your at it?

Most people don't mind having the option to turn invasions from antags on or off (me either) , so why don't you focus your efforts on bringing not only valid concerns about your experience but also regarding an experience where we could achieve having a middle ground about this topic . Yes , having high level antags can be a HUGE dealbreaker but so is having low leveled players who ruin people's experiences by disconnecting with/without an antag (even in a winning match) .
 I guess I have to bring some middle ground suggestions to calm the lot of you for a while :

1) MAKE IT OPTIONAL (especially on Mentor Matches) : It's not that much of a issue for me , but lots of players wish they could simply guide newcomers without the extra struggle . It is also an ideal way for PvEers to play the game as they please , without the seed of doubt an antagonist match plants into them .

2) Give some extra rewards for both scenarios : Maybe 1000 - 2000 extra gold for fighting Antags depending on performance and in the antag's case , an extra 500-1500 gold . Same amounts for Faction Points .

3) Balance the leveling : I can't tell you how many times I've played matches with antags who are way lower leveled than me personally (the opposite is true for 150-200+ antags with the increased passive bonuses , unlocked cards and higher forge levels which means more points to distribute .) .

 I hope I've made my case pretty clear Mr. Drow . Just hope you act rationally on some level as well .

Cheers , BlaZeMaN .

[Level9Drow]

Much respect for Draco, I hope MSE will create a better game for PvPers as well. Especially ones like this. I will never go back on this belief.

@Agent-Z46
This issue will never stop so long as it's forced. There will be a steady influx of people drawn to the PvE aspects of the game, new players, from Warframe and Overwatch (those who liked Uprising and Retribution) who find out this game has a strong squad PvE mission aspect to it. These players will inevitably get invaded, early at low levels unfortunately and usually by a person who is 5 times their level, and so will inevitably come to these forums to vent their dissatisfaction. Each a new anecdotal situation, brand new. And each coming from a gaming community abroad where PvP and PvE hybrid games always give you the option, even the most hard core games like Dark Souls give you the option.

And the old players, like me, will continue to support their posts. MSE has EARNED this flack. I don't mean this in a malicious or vindictive way towards them, but in a matter of fact kine of mere consequence kind of way. They chose forced PvP, this is going to happen. Why not get mad at an earthquake for spilling your drink or the sun for being hot in summer while your at it?

Most people don't mind having the option to turn invasions from antags on or off (me either) , so why don't you focus your efforts on bringing not only valid concerns about your experience but also regarding an experience where we could achieve having a middle ground about this topic . Yes , having high level antags can be a HUGE dealbreaker but so is having low leveled players who ruin people's experiences by disconnecting with/without an antag (even in a winning match) .
 I guess I have to bring some middle ground suggestions to calm the lot of you for a while :

1) MAKE IT OPTIONAL (especially on Mentor Matches) : It's not that much of a issue for me , but lots of players wish they could simply guide newcomers without the extra struggle . It is also an ideal way for PvEers to play the game as they please , without the seed of doubt an antagonist match plants into them .

2) Give some extra rewards for both scenarios : Maybe 1000 - 2000 extra gold for fighting Antags depending on performance and in the antag's case , an extra 500-1500 gold . Same amounts for Faction Points .

3) Balance the leveling : I can't tell you how many times I've played matches with antags who are way lower leveled than me personally (the opposite is true for 150-200+ antags with the increased passive bonuses , unlocked cards and higher forge levels which means more points to distribute .) .

 I hope I've made my case pretty clear Mr. Drow . Just hope you act rationally on some level as well .

Cheers , BlaZeMaN .

We have been. All the points you've made have been done so. They know. The only thing to do now is to support the posts that lament forced PvP. The objective now is to try and plee for a change.

You're points were already clear and expressed long before you've made them. As for rationality, I would ask the devs for a little of that as well.

[Kiss Shot]

How can MSE expect good reactions on PVP  when their game has mechanics as levels and boosted stats.

You want a fair PVP match ?
Make Antag matches independant from those bonuses or like in some mmo's equalize players stats.
It will at least diminish a bit the unfairness of the games and give more oportunities for high level players to play.

I suppose it's normal to be pissed off when ya play against antags or raiders with 100 levels above yours and be killed with 1-2 rapid fire bullets or 1 punch.