[LordDraco3]

So we all know that all Council missions feel particularly difficult compared to all the rest. Or maybe not even difficult, but very hard to beat in a timely manner? They are taking 20-30 minutes on average, every single time.

I have no doubt these missions will reach a better balance in an update soon, but I wanted to bring this to MSE's attention:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZCdg0OdwuY&feature=youtu.be
(not my video)
Upside Down, on Insane difficulty, with SCHNEIDER, of all characters, takes an HOUR. Schneider is possibly the single most useful and best character for this mission, too.

Anyways, just wanted to shine a light on that. Especially since, thanks to some other threads, there have been hints that Schneider might be nerfed soon.

[Angeles2099]

I agree but I cant tell if this topic belongs in Feedback or Suggestions. Your stating that this mission in particular takes too long too beat? Let's suppose Mercury can reduce the health pool of Dr.Kuzmann's Robot, Than you can stun in easier and the mission won't last an entire hour.

 But the thing is that the video example you put was a solo mission with no form of help. The difference between one Raider and Four can potentially cut that time in half maybe even shorter than that, serously, that is unless you have a bunch of level 1-10's who are grasping at straws. Now if
 an Antagonist shows up that's a whole other story. Frankly outside of an Antag, theirs nothing wrong with that mission and it's time span, it lasts about as long as most Boss battles do and it is a Boss Battle after all.

[LordDraco3]

Yes sorry, I DID mean to place this in Feedback, I probably had multiple tabs going at once. Whoops!

Most boss missions take 8-15 minutes, all of Council's missions take 24+ minutes at the fastest, from my experience.

But my point in posting this is that solo mode tends to be easier due to lower health pools, things die faster. Schneider is the best choice for this mission. When the best tool for the job can't get the job done in a reasonable amount of time, there is something wrong with the job. Insane solo should be challenging, but there shouldn't be any mission in this game that takes an hour to beat. There is a balance issue there.

Ironically this mission was my toughest antag one ever, and I fought a raider team for possibly 45 mins to an hour before finally winning.

[Angeles2099]

Same here I was using Ginebra against some friends of mine and kept playing keep away with Kuzmanns Head.....that mission felt like an hour long struggle it made me as the Antag never want to fight there again.

I think you have a valid point, they don't even have to reduce it by all that much, just enough where it wont take 40 to 60 min worst case scenario. I dont really mind this mission otherwise but its kinda stale in comparison to In Shock.

[MSE_Karen]

Hi, guys!

Thank you very much for reporting this. As you may know, we just released the update 11.0 and, among other things, it applies some changes to the Upside Down mission that should reduce the difficulty a little bit. Please, check it out, we'll love to hear your impressions!

https://www.spacelordsthegame.com/community/index.php?topic=2760.0

[Angeles2099]

Oh I didn't know about that, thanks.

[Angeles2099]

UPSIDE DOWN

- Reduced the time required to activate the trojan by 20%.
- Reduced Dr. Kuzmann's health by 15%.
- Increased the time Dr. Kuzmann stays stunned by 10%.
- Increased enemy spawn frequency by 10% when not playing against an antagonist.

Im going to check out this mission and report back how it goes.

[reaperofsorrows7]

The reduced health and increase in stun help alot if you can stun pretty regularly, though you still need optimized characters to it work. Though if the health reduction applies to when the body is searching for the head then all the better. Only thing I have left is having more terminals available when grabbing kuzmanns head. I've had situations where they would all appear right next to kuzmanns body.

[Level9Drow]

Keep in mind guys, that the game changes a lot when you reach level 150 and can max forge weapons. A lot of characters you would think are not optimal for Upside Down become very good with their max forced weapons.

NOTE: Keep in mind that when you forge a weapon for rewards it takes away from it's effectiveness as a weapon. So if you are noticing the mission is till hard, please look at your weapon. I never forge for loot myself.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Keep in mind guys, that the game changes a lot when you reach level 150 and can max forge weapons. A lot of characters you would think are not optimal for Upside Down become very good with their max forced weapons.

NOTE: Keep in mind that when you forge a weapon for rewards it takes away from it's effectiveness as a weapon. So if you are noticing the mission is till hard, please look at your weapon. I never forge for loot myself.

FYI, max Forge is now level 20 at account level 199.

[Level9Drow]

Keep in mind guys, that the game changes a lot when you reach level 150 and can max forge weapons. A lot of characters you would think are not optimal for Upside Down become very good with their max forced weapons.

NOTE: Keep in mind that when you forge a weapon for rewards it takes away from it's effectiveness as a weapon. So if you are noticing the mission is till hard, please look at your weapon. I never forge for loot myself.

FYI, max Forge is now level 20 at account level 199.

Oh, well the Forge level is till only maxing at level 20, but I guess they extended the level to 199, strange. Despite this, the spirit of the statement holds. Save judgement for ultimately how difficult a mission is until you have a max forged weapon.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Keep in mind guys, that the game changes a lot when you reach level 150 and can max forge weapons. A lot of characters you would think are not optimal for Upside Down become very good with their max forced weapons.

NOTE: Keep in mind that when you forge a weapon for rewards it takes away from it's effectiveness as a weapon. So if you are noticing the mission is till hard, please look at your weapon. I never forge for loot myself.

FYI, max Forge is now level 20 at account level 199.

Oh, well the Forge level is till only maxing at level 20, but I guess they extended the level to 199, strange. Despite this, the spirit of the statement holds. Save judgement for ultimately how difficult a mission is until you have a max forged weapon.

So let me understand this... you want me to play for a few hundred hours before making a judgement on the difficulty of the game?

[Level9Drow]

Keep in mind guys, that the game changes a lot when you reach level 150 and can max forge weapons. A lot of characters you would think are not optimal for Upside Down become very good with their max forced weapons.

NOTE: Keep in mind that when you forge a weapon for rewards it takes away from it's effectiveness as a weapon. So if you are noticing the mission is till hard, please look at your weapon. I never forge for loot myself.

FYI, max Forge is now level 20 at account level 199.

Oh, well the Forge level is till only maxing at level 20, but I guess they extended the level to 199, strange. Despite this, the spirit of the statement holds. Save judgement for ultimately how difficult a mission is until you have a max forged weapon.

So let me understand this... you want me to play for a few hundred hours before making a judgement on the difficulty of the game?

I'm saying that if your weapon is below max forge it is unfair to say it is sub optimal, relative to the difficulty. The weapon will get stronger if you forge it higher. And in my limited experience as a level 300+ player who has all characters with multiple weapons I use maxed forge for being effective towards mission objectives, and not things like Treasure Hunting, Bounty Hunter or Affiliation, I can say a lot more weapons are effective than what many may be lead to believe.

Make of that what you will. But it doesn't take as long as you might think to reach max forge level.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Keep in mind guys, that the game changes a lot when you reach level 150 and can max forge weapons. A lot of characters you would think are not optimal for Upside Down become very good with their max forced weapons.

NOTE: Keep in mind that when you forge a weapon for rewards it takes away from it's effectiveness as a weapon. So if you are noticing the mission is till hard, please look at your weapon. I never forge for loot myself.

FYI, max Forge is now level 20 at account level 199.

Oh, well the Forge level is till only maxing at level 20, but I guess they extended the level to 199, strange. Despite this, the spirit of the statement holds. Save judgement for ultimately how difficult a mission is until you have a max forged weapon.

So let me understand this... you want me to play for a few hundred hours before making a judgement on the difficulty of the game?

I'm saying that if your weapon is below max forge it is unfair to say it is sub optimal, relative to the difficulty. The weapon will get stronger if you forge it higher. And in my limited experience as a level 300+ player who has all characters with multiple weapons I use maxed forge for being effective towards mission objectives, and not things like Treasure Hunting, Bounty Hunter or Affiliation, I can say a lot more weapons are effective than what many may be lead to believe.

Make of that what you will. But it doesn't take as long as you might think to reach max forge level.

And I am just noting that such a condition is unrealistic and most players will have quit long before then. I really enjoy Spacelords but the progression path is an absolute joke. It's bad enough grinding for blueprints but then to force players to pay full price at every forge level regardless of if the weapon was previously crafted is ludicrous. And then you say that not having a weapon at max forge is suboptimal so you cant judge the game when 99% of all players cannot afford to keep weapons at max forge is not only unrealistic, but ignorant to the current progression path.

As you said, you are a much higher level so you don't know how the game progresses for lower level players, but that does not mean that everyone should be expected to reach your level to understand how the game can be played.

Take Warframe as an example. It has a ton of content for new players. So much content that I joke that you are a newbie until after you have played for 300 hours. But even during that time the game is still fair and the difficulty is appropriate for new players.

I cannot say the same thing for Spacelords and even now at level 83, I have to choose between saving gold for a new character or forging a rare weapon because I simply cannot afford to do both. And the worst part is that if I craft the weapon, I have to pay full price the next time I want to upgrade it so really upgrading doesn't benefit me until I'm at max forge anyway. I don't mind having to grind for the blueprint again, but I shouldn't have to pay full price to add a few skill points into the weapon.

[LordDraco3]

The changes definitely sound good for speeding up the mission, will have to give it a try when I get home!

---------------------
And for the new argument going on here...
many weapons are still plenty effective at lower level forge. I'd argue it's mostly crit-based guns that fall short at lower levels, since it has to do with crit chance and crit damage, vs. flat numbers. Not all weapons are created equally, though more points is obviously always going to be better.

Also I totally agree that it's bad that we have to pay for every single forging, full price. It completely discourages regularly upgrading your gear, and just sticks to the mindset of making maybe a couple of weapons to play, but wait till max to craft all your weapons, and that's just anti-fun.