[Hiero_Glyph]

To those who feel bad for the newbies in the first post, I guess you could say I got what I deserved 
22 minutes against a Konstantin doing everything to throw away the bombs or shoot them was grueling work, but getting the two newbies their guns made it worth the effort!
Sadly I doubt that baby-harec is ever coming back.

At least they got the blueprints! And when everything is done, no one had a good time. That's the worst part since the antag just ruins the game in most cases either by making you lose what would have been a challenging match, or by giving you less rewards despite requiring more effort.

This reminds me of what Todd Howard said about making PvP in Fallout 76 as you don't need a reason to make players grief others, but you do need a way to make those griefers into valuable content. The antag is no different here and MSE needs to figure out how to reward raiders so that they want to face antags, but you don't really need a reason to make players want to play as an antag (and Spacelords already has one with the card system).

[Cryptek]

And when everything is done, no one had a good time.

Now that's not technically correct, it may just be because I'm a Dark souls veteran or secretly a masochist. But I loved the match, I just wish the rewards weren't shit because I can without a doubt say I'll be remembering that match for months.. I generally dont even remember PVE matches the next day or hell sometimes even an hour later.

But with the match coming down to the wire more than once (during both phases) and several encounters where it was either a case of getting progress snatched away right at the finish line, or just narrowly managing to squeeze by. With me doing my best Harec impression as he managed to not 3, not 4 but 5 times foil our attempt to blow the last tank up RIGHT AT THE TANK.

In the end the frustration and anger only made carrying those two newbies to their BPs all the sweeter.

[Tekato]

And when everything is done, no one had a good time.

Now that's not technically correct, it may just be because I'm a Dark souls veteran or secretly a masochist. But I loved the match, I just wish the rewards weren't shit because I can without a doubt say I'll be remembering that match for months.. I generally dont even remember PVE matches the next day or hell sometimes even an hour later.

But with the match coming down to the wire more than once (during both phases) and several encounters where it was either a case of getting progress snatched away right at the finish line, or just narrowly managing to squeeze by. With me doing my best Harec impression as he managed to not 3, not 4 but 5 times foil our attempt to blow the last tank up RIGHT AT THE TANK.

In the end the frustration and anger only made carrying those two newbies to their BPs all the sweeter.

You say you're having fun but then a literal paragraph later state that you were frustrated and angry during the match. Please decide which one is it. You probably meant that the end felt rewarding because of the victory and the newbies getting their blueprints, but at the same time was the match actually fun not just for you but your team which had no choice but to either slug through it or disconnect and get penalized.

[Cryptek]

You say you're having fun but then a literal sentence later state that you were frustrated and angry during the match. Please decide which one is it. You probably meant that the end felt rewarding because of the victory and the newbies getting their blueprints, but at the same time was the match actually fun not just for you but your team which had no choice but to either slug through it or disconnect and get penalized.

Frustration and anger dont need to be seen as negatives, they're powerful emotions, a pendulum of going "no, no, NOOOOO" and "yes! TAKE THAT" ups and downs serve to accentuate each other. You will never feel the same sense of satisfaction if you're just given a 10/10 in 5 minutes with no effort, as if you had to fight tooth and nail to narrowly make it across the goal line for a 6/10.

But as you pointed out yourself, they should change the reward system to tap into this, because in my opinion PVE can only ever keep a franchise going so long without constant content updates (which are expensive), PVP on the other hand is the gift that keeps on giving.

[Tekato]

You say you're having fun but then a literal sentence later state that you were frustrated and angry during the match. Please decide which one is it. You probably meant that the end felt rewarding because of the victory and the newbies getting their blueprints, but at the same time was the match actually fun not just for you but your team which had no choice but to either slug through it or disconnect and get penalized.

Frustration and anger dont need to be seen as negatives, they're powerful emotions, a pendulum of going "no, no, NOOOOO" and "yes! TAKE THAT" ups and downs serve to accentuate each other. You will never feel the same sense of satisfaction if you're just given a 10/10 in 5 minutes with no effort, as if you had to fight tooth and nail to narrowly make it across the goal line for a 6/10.

But as you pointed out yourself, they should change the reward system to tap into this, because in my opinion PVE can only ever keep a franchise going so long without constant content updates (which are expensive), PVP on the other hand is the gift that keeps on giving.

I see where you're coming but not everyone thinks like that. I just hope they can fix the pvp issues before it's too late.

[Cryptek]

I see where you're coming but not everyone thinks like that. I just hope they can fix the pvp issues before it's too late.

I never claimed the two newbies had a good time or hell even the antagonist, I just felt like I had to point out that at least one person had fun despite everything.
I mean my point in the OP was that antagonists shouldn't even be allowed in mentor matches! The new player experience is pretty bad in this game, antag or no because I've had missions with close to 50% difficulty, in mentor matches! Newbies thrown into a situation like that will have a horrible first impression of the game.

[Level9Drow]

You say you're having fun but then a literal sentence later state that you were frustrated and angry during the match. Please decide which one is it. You probably meant that the end felt rewarding because of the victory and the newbies getting their blueprints, but at the same time was the match actually fun not just for you but your team which had no choice but to either slug through it or disconnect and get penalized.

Frustration and anger dont need to be seen as negatives, they're powerful emotions, a pendulum of going "no, no, NOOOOO" and "yes! TAKE THAT" ups and downs serve to accentuate each other. You will never feel the same sense of satisfaction if you're just given a 10/10 in 5 minutes with no effort, as if you had to fight tooth and nail to narrowly make it across the goal line for a 6/10.

But as you pointed out yourself, they should change the reward system to tap into this, because in my opinion PVE can only ever keep a franchise going so long without constant content updates (which are expensive), PVP on the other hand is the gift that keeps on giving.

I see where you're coming but not everyone thinks like that. I just hope they can fix the pvp issues before it's too late.

Completely agree, not everyone does feel this way. Frustration and anger for me means I am not having a good time at all. There is a lot of people who find elation after frustrating gameplay and criticize others that if they just tried harder at games like Dark Souls, Mythic Raids in WoW, and on hard PvP games that they will feel rewarded. But I'm an older gamer and so I see it differently.

If I'm not getting compensated for my time with entertainment and enjoyment I feel cheated. If I am having a terrible time even if I win I don't feel happy, because the experience was bad. A perfect Example was back in WoW, Wrath of the Litch King: Our guild was stuck on Syndregosa for a long time and we fought her every weekend and many times we got close. As a young man I fell for the bait. I thought that smashing against this wall was going to mean something in the end that I would appreciate if I won. After finally winning from 30 or more attempts over a month or more I didn't feel happy at all. I remember it distinctly; she finally died and  all I got was some piece of armor or some token, I don't even remember and I didn't care. I was pist. The reward didn't compare or was worth all the hell I had went through. I realized that I felt duped, I felt fooled like I was tricked to thinking this was going to matter and that somehow it was going to be worth it. But it wasn't. Some digital piece of meaningless nothing, that would be outdated in a few months anyways and a feeling of lost time with no REAL reward. At this point I realized completely that I hated super hard games. That nothing a game developer can give you within their game could be rewarding enough to make me feel better. I realized that the reward of the game should be in playing the game itself and then accompanied by some rewards as well.

I think the culture of gamers changed. Young people find false sense of accomplishment in drudging through hardship. But as an adult I ALREADY get this in real life with REAL life challenges. But the difference is that in real life, with bills, relationships, careers, etc... the stress and anguish you go through pays off with REAL rewards that make it worth it. so when a game subjects you with the same level of distress and anguish and then gives you a digital token of your time it feels empty. Unless the developers of any particular ultra hard game could send me a check in the mail, or a real life reward then there just isn't any way I would have incentive to subject myself to anguish and anger, it isn't worth it.

Some might say, "But you get stronger and better." I say,to that, for what? What will me beating Syndrigosa do? Can I put it on a resume? Will someone say, "You beat those hard games, here have some real money.". The answer is nothing. You don't take the experience you had and apply it to anything else, therefore it's a false accomplishment with no merit or true return of investment.

I don't mind challenge, as long as it delights me and gets me to exert myself a little, but not too much or else I am stressed and angry, not engaged and interested. As an older person who has a good idea of what time, rewards and entertainment is I think a game should be something you can get off of work and play after an ALREADY stressful day where you ALREADY did work, and actually are paid. But if I purchased the entertainment and am giving it precious time of my limited life I don't want to come home to another job where I don't enjoy and am not paid for. I want to relax, and have fun. Be rewarded for my time and not be stressed or angry.

This isn't to say that I believe others who like hard challenges are wrong. I'm just saying I would like the option not to have the stress in a game I play after I get home with limited time to waste after work as an already stressed adult. Making PvP optional would fix this. I would allow for some of us just to have fun feeling like a hero against enemy AI that can be challenging enough to peak our interest and make us engaged. Add an antag in there and some of us tilt, disconnect, surrender, suicide, AFK, because we feel the experience will not be worth it and that we shouldn't invest time in a game with an antagonist as it will only bring anguish and anger and nothing that could feel rewarding enough to compensate us for that state of emotional distress.

I'm praying that somewhere in the road-map there will be some sort of way for people like me to enjoy themselves. Sorry for the rant.

/rant

[Cryptek]

Young people find false sense of accomplishment in drudging through hardship. But as an adult

That's a rather childish and bigoted opinion to have, in my case I think about the experiences and memories more than any fleeting currency or meaningless score at the end of the mission, exactly because I am an oldschool gamer.

There was a time when the term "Nintendo hard" was a thing, likewise oldschool PC gaming, especially before the internet with guides and stuff, meant you where in for hours and hours of grueling hard work to figure things out for yourself, because you had no real information to go on when making your purchase so you picked the game with the cool cover and by god you where gonna get your moneys worth even if it was a buggy, unplayable mess. Your reward? If you where lucky a 10 second cut scene using in game assets and a text scroll, most of the time you'd just get a single screen saying "congratulations".

And my advise to you would be: Dont play a game with random 4v1 pvp matches if pvp stresses you out and makes you unhappy, that's a self fulfilling prophecy for giving yourself a bad time.

I can understand saying the current MMR is fucked up or the new player experience is bad, but if a core selling point of the game is leaving you unfulfilled (and not just because the rewards currently suck for both parties), maybe you should consider that this just isn't the game for you.

There is no shame in saying "my job leaves me too emotionally drained to deal with losing in a video game" and switching to something more casual, it's your time after all.

[Hiero_Glyph]

I think Level9Drow hit the nail on the head; it's about respecting the player's time. Its one thing to reward the player for playing the game and to keep making the game harder the more that player succeeds. It's another thing to force the player to face an antag and potentially make the game harder/longer and reducing the rewards. One respects the player's time and the other wastes it.

Now some players have more time than others so wasting some of it may not matter to them, but for many players failing a long, hard fought mission and scoring a 3.2 doesn't really respect their time when they could have gotten a 6.5 against the AI. This is especially problematic for blueprint missions since you need to win and if you get a duplicate you basically wasted your time anyway.

[Tekato]

Young people find false sense of accomplishment in drudging through hardship. But as an adult

That's a rather childish and bigoted opinion to have, in my case I think about the experiences and memories more than any fleeting currency or meaningless score at the end of the mission, exactly because I am an oldschool gamer.

There was a time when the term "Nintendo hard" was a thing, likewise oldschool PC gaming, especially before the internet with guides and stuff, meant you where in for hours and hours of grueling hard work to figure things out for yourself, because you had no real information to go on when making your purchase so you picked the game with the cool cover and by god you where gonna get your moneys worth even if it was a buggy, unplayable mess. Your reward? If you where lucky a 10 second cut scene using in game assets and a text scroll, most of the time you'd just get a single screen saying "congratulations".

And my advise to you would be: Dont play a game with random 4v1 pvp matches if pvp stresses you out and makes you unhappy, that's a self fulfilling prophecy for giving yourself a bad time.

I can understand saying the current MMR is fucked up or the new player experience is bad, but if a core selling point of the game is leaving you unfulfilled (and not just because the rewards currently suck for both parties), maybe you should consider that this just isn't the game for you.

There is no shame in saying "my job leaves me too emotionally drained to deal with losing in a video game" and switching to something more casual, it's your time after all.

I just don't understand why we can't just have both. I know that the game advertises 4v1 but the reality is the larger part of the player base just plays for the co-op pve. If the players that mainly just pve would listen to your solution then this game will die. I love the art style and gameplay of this game even if at times the AI and glitches can be irritating. It's a good game and i really wouldn't want to quit it just because I do not like the random pvp.

[Cryptek]

I just don't understand why we can't just have both. I know that the game advertises 4v1 but the reality is the larger part of the player base just plays for the co-op pve. If the players that mainly just pve would listen to your solution then this game will die. I love the art style and gameplay of this game even if at times the AI and glitches can be irritating. It's a good game and i really wouldn't want to quit it just because I do not like the random pvp.

I get complaining about the rewards.
I get complaining about matchmaking being broken.
I get complaining about the lack of in game communication being unbearable.
I get complaining about the fact that mentor matches offer no real incentive to play (especially when you cant even communicate and help the new players, I mean for crying out loud the only reason warframe does so well is because the community helps teach new players the game).
I get complaining about balancing issues.

What I don't get is complaining about a core feature and system of the game (it's unique 4v1 pvp) over a year after the game came out, when the developers clearly intended for that to be the main playstyle for the game. It's like "what where you expecting?".

What I get even less than that however: Is how people can justify suggesting splitting a already tiny community, and then having the audacity to pretend it wouldn't make the current queue times even more abysmal.

[Level9Drow]

Young people find false sense of accomplishment in drudging through hardship. But as an adult

That's a rather childish and bigoted opinion to have, in my case I think about the experiences and memories more than any fleeting currency or meaningless score at the end of the mission, exactly because I am an oldschool gamer.

There was a time when the term "Nintendo hard" was a thing, likewise oldschool PC gaming, especially before the internet with guides and stuff, meant you where in for hours and hours of grueling hard work to figure things out for yourself, because you had no real information to go on when making your purchase so you picked the game with the cool cover and by god you where gonna get your moneys worth even if it was a buggy, unplayable mess. Your reward? If you where lucky a 10 second cut scene using in game assets and a text scroll, most of the time you'd just get a single screen saying "congratulations".

And my advise to you would be: Dont play a game with random 4v1 pvp matches if pvp stresses you out and makes you unhappy, that's a self fulfilling prophecy for giving yourself a bad time.

I can understand saying the current MMR is fucked up or the new player experience is bad, but if a core selling point of the game is leaving you unfulfilled (and not just because the rewards currently suck for both parties), maybe you should consider that this just isn't the game for you.

There is no shame in saying "my job leaves me too emotionally drained to deal with losing in a video game" and switching to something more casual, it's your time after all.

I don't think you know what the definition of bigoted means. That word doesn't fit within the context of our conversation, it has to do with race, religion, sexism, etc... but not videogame philosophy. Also by saying that you also invalidate my existence and experience as an older gamer. And no one is saying that people are wrong to want hard games, just that more options would be good. Saying it's bigoted also means that it's impossible for anyone to have any different opinion on the matter, or they're "bigoted". I'm not trying to stir the pot here, or become your adversary, I'm just trying to inform you kindly that you are reading a bit too much negativity in what I am saying.

This game is rated M, which means the demographic is mostly adults. Adult usually have jobs and most adults already feel they work. So it's not like we're dealing with a rated T game where kids and teenagers, who don't have a sense of money and time know any better. As a kid, sure, I had tones of time and put up with a lot more from video games. So it's not like this game has the wrong demographic and it was supposed to be kids with all the time on their hands.

It's also a myth about "Nintendo hard" most Nintendo games were just fine. They offered moderate challenge. There were a few that stood out and took the limelight, but most Nintendo games, even the good ones, were moderately challenging that required some hard work, but the pacing and progress was never hindered. A lot of hard games, also, were due to glitches and poor design rather than the developers genuinely wanting something to be an impassable wall. So I think "Nintendo Hard" is a hyperbole, I had a lot of fun with my NES and SNES.

Next you brought up hard work and progression. Hard work was never an issue. As long as the pacing is constant, the work is rewarded for and the developers don't have huge spikes of difficulties in the form of impassable walls that stop progress. I've had plenty of games that took time and hard work, I find them rewarding. Time and hard work are not synonymous with stress, anger and anguish though.

Everything you said up to this point was, for the most part, fair and respectable. But the last part was rather underhanded and demeaning. The ol' "Maybe the game isn't for you!" and then you put some extra snark by stating, "There's no shame." How dare you. This is a lazy shield to hide behind in order to shut out another's opinion. Your comment would imply that there is something wrong with me after working. I assure you, there isn't, so you can dispense with your snarky implication.

I was as polite as I could be. I'm sorry you disagree with me, but I feel if the game had an optional PvP function both gamer types could coexist peacefully without stepping on each other's toes. You could have all the masochistic joy you could ever want fighting antagonists with low level players who disconnect and reveling in your frustration and I could completely not care about the whole affair of antagonists and completely ignore the PvP mess, as it would no longer be any of my concern, and just enjoy uninterrupted progression and actually have fun with hard work and time spent as it would not be robbed from me by other players.

[Cryptek]

I don't think you know what the definition of bigoted means.

English may not be my first language but I too can look up a dictionary:
bigot noun [ C ]
uk ​ /ˈbɪɡ.ət/ us ​ /ˈbɪɡ.ət/ disapproving
a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life.

As for the Nintendo part: If you're claiming Contra, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania, Battletoads, TMNT or the slew of other games specfically built to break your balls where just "moderately challenging" I'll have to ask you to take off your rosetinted glasses, the NES had more than Kirby ya know. It was the era of arcade games so most games funnily enough had the mentality that they where out for your blood.

As for your other points, I'll refer to my earlier response to people complaining about PVP not being optional.

If you take being called "casual" as an offense that's up to you, I'm simply drawing the logical conclusion that if something you're doing in your free time to wind down, is stressing you out and giving you an unpleasant experience, maybe you should stop since that's basically self harm. But dont go forcing your values on others by saying adults cant enjoy hard games, people are wired differently and some people take video games more seriously than others for better or worse.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Cryptek, the moment MSE allowed you to play a match without an antagonist present it became optional to have one. So for you to claim that the core of the game requires an antagonist is simply false. The fact that you cannot choose when an antagonist invades your game is what the argument is here; not having one has always been possible.

EDIT: As for splitting an already small community, well the community would not be as small if antags were optional. Furthermore, you are worried about queue times as an antagonist which would also improve if there was a reason to play against them. Right now there is exactly 1 reason to play as an antagonist and it requires minimal play time to flip your experience meter from raider to antagonist. Any more than that and you are doing it purely to grief others, even if it is fun for you, since only the antagonist gets to decide when PvP will occur.

[Whitebleidd]

What I don't get is complaining about a core feature and system of the game (it's unique 4v1 pvp) over a year after the game came out, when the developers clearly intended for that to be the main playstyle for the game. It's like "what where you expecting?".

What I get even less than that however: Is how people can justify suggesting splitting a already tiny community, and then having the audacity to pretend it wouldn't make the current queue times even more abysmal.

Core feature lol, it’s such a “core feature” that many players wouldn’t even be playing this game if it was not for pve matches, antags can repeat that all they want, hell even MS can claim that, but the reality, the fact is, that antags/pvp are not the core of the game, it’s not uncommon for an artist for example to start piece with a clear goal in mind, yet ends up with something unintended, different from that original vision, that doesn’t mean worse, as is the case with raiders imo.

This game manages to please both pve and pvp players, which is fine, but there is no reason why both sides need to be forced to play together, the community should be split, because there is no reason I or any other pve player should be in a match for the entertainment of an antag.

All the reasons in your earlier post as to why you enjoy pvp in this game mean squat to someone like me, we basically see it in polar opposites, which shouldn’t be an issue, because we should be playing 2 different modes altogether, some ppl are in it only for the characters/skins, the graphics, the combat, taking down mobs and getting xp/gold (which means high scores), I don’t want some annoying little sh**t bothering me while I’m taking down grunts, elites and the boss.