[Tekato]

No one wants the antag removed, we just want it to be a better experience for all 5 players.

I cant take that statement serious from people who would like to opt out of PVP and play PVE instead because they dont enjoy the PVP.

But I'll level with you and give it one last effort to hammer home why you cant suggest splitting the community currently as if it would fix the game and wouldn't just ruin the game for people who PVP while only benefiting people who are scared of it.

Things you need to fix before you can even consider it:
The reward system, currently rewards are shit
The new player experience, both PVE and PVP because I see so many level ones just pull the plug halfway through a mission, even if we're winning because they aren't having fun.
The latency issue, no one is having a good time if there's 400 ping and I would personally prefer having to wait longer in the queue than have 20+ minutes of being unable to participate (and before anyone jumps on that: No an antag doesn't make it so you cant participate, get better at the game, you cant get better at dealing with ping when it breaks the CQC system to the point that even if you throw a counter punch BEFORE an enemy starts a grab, you'll still get grabbed due to the delay)

Most importantly however: Much, Much better communication, it's laughable that a team based game like this has such piss poor communication options (Especialy on PC, but we're the smallest playerbase so that's probably last on their to-do list)

Once you fix all those things, which will take a LONG ass time, you then have to look at the population numbers. It's no secret that spacelords doesn't have the numbers like for example: Warframe.
at time of writing just on Steam Warframe has 56k people online, then you add the consoles ontop that afterwards.
If spacelords had a population like Warframe? You could definitely survive splitting the community into PVE/PVP.
With the current however? I dont know what numbers for PS4 and XBONE but for steam there's currently 91 people online
ninety-fucking-one
You CANNOT with a straight face say splitting a community this tiny wouldn't adversely affect antags, you CANNOT say "oh but the guys who wanna PVP will just PVP and I'll live in my magical happy place without mean antags" without accepting that holding that opinion is tantamount to: Fuck antags, remove them from the game by giving them huge queue times and make every, single, match a complete stomping of them. "oh but we'll just balance it"
Have you seen the last patch? They cant even balance one map (talking about "In shock" here) what makes you think they can just magially make the antag experience anything resembling what it is now if you did a split?
Never mind that again, Antags are going to have 30+ minutes to an hour queues and that's IF you beef up their rewards to drastically out perform PVE rewards.

And then we come to the final thing, it might not be you, but you just know that if you make the rewards for PVP better than PVE, someone is going to be angry and whine that "why isn't their hard work being rewarded as much? Is their time less valuable than people who PVP?" and because players are hardwired to always go "yes more rewards for less effort" it'll get a landslide of approval, with any antag speaking up getting shot down as a brutal dick who is stepping on the poor defenseless casuals.

So no, your appeal of "but I dont want to PVP so you should feel bad for invading me in a game about 4v1 PVP" doens't hold up in court.

For the 100th time if they make the rewards good enough for opting into a pvp match the matchmaking won't be a problem. You think nobody will join pvp if the rewards are 10k gold and faction points? Sign me up even if i hate pvp I'll do it a few times before i get completely stressed out and then go back to pve only.

[Cryptek]

Like many have said before in the current system you will often run into players that are not prepared for pvp by bringing a character to farm a specific blueprint or faction points etc, their team composition in that case is gonna suck and that's probably what you want.

Yes it is, you're being punished for being greedy deal with it. If you think the developers wouldn't lower your PVE rewards as a result for not being punished you're delusional.

It's very obvious that you dont play as an antag if you think the queue times are just as good or if you think a 4v1 against a team set up to stomp an antag is fair.

You are ignoring every new player who jumps into this game, who gets frustrated being stomped on by 4x level 200+ character over and over again, because they have hero killer for like 50-60% extra damage on their guns and access to WAY better cards than them, the only way a new antag is ever going to win in this scenario is if he gets matched with people not prepared to fight an antag, who are as inexperienced at PVP as him. That would never, NEVER happen if you split the current community into PVP/PVE, there would be no one but hardcore PVP fanatic playing AS the raiders, since they'd get to do the two things they love: Stomp on other people and they'd even get better rewards than if they played the game normally.
I get where you're coming from, and sure it would be a nice safety net if you could just opt out of PVP to garauntee that you'll get a BP drop, but if you give people that opportunity you are killing every future antag, or alternative you're going to have a MASSIVE balance overhaul and redesign of the game.

The current system favors the raiders and if you lose, it is because: You suck at the game (aka he outplayed you AND your 3 teammates), Something unfortunate like a Disconnect or Mentor match happened, or you where greedy and made a shitty, fucking team composition so you got stomped on one of the 3 hallway maps because no one bothered to bring a character that can counter Valeria with the WHIP.

Sign me up even if i hate pvp I'll do it a few times before i get completely stressed out and then go back to pve only.

And there's your problem, because you just removed a HUGE chunk of the population from the pool.
Currently people Antag for two reasons: Because they love PVP or because they want cards/equilibrium bonus.
Queue times are usually around 10 minutes (at least on PC) and that's if you have every map selected. Now lets say you make the rewards good, this will increase the amount of antags who just want the reward. That's gonna increase the wait time, but not to unbearable levels.
But then you remove most of the population they can invade? Yeah those queue times are going to be abysmal, How much of your play time do you think you'd spend in PVP mode?
How much of any newbies time do you think they'd spend in PVP mode?
If that number is anything less than 100%, you're trading your enjoyment for the enjoyment of every antag by making their experience more miserable.

You are the ones trying to fundamentally change the game, so no you dont get to make demands like that.

[Tekato]

Like many have said before in the current system you will often run into players that are not prepared for pvp by bringing a character to farm a specific blueprint or faction points etc, their team composition in that case is gonna suck and that's probably what you want.

Yes it is, you're being punished for being greedy deal with it. If you think the developers wouldn't lower your PVE rewards as a result for not being punished you're delusional.

It's very obvious that you dont play as an antag if you think the queue times are just as good or if you think a 4v1 against a team set up to stomp an antag is fair.

You are ignoring every new player who jumps into this game, who gets frustrated being stomped on by 4x level 200+ character over and over again, because they have hero killer for like 50-60% extra damage on their guns and access to WAY better cards than them, the only way a new antag is ever going to win in this scenario is if he gets matched with people not prepared to fight an antag, who are as inexperienced at PVP as him. That would never, NEVER happen if you split the current community into PVP/PVE, there would be no one but hardcore PVP fanatic playing AS the raiders, since they'd get to do the two things they love: Stomp on other people and they'd even get better rewards than if they played the game normally.
I get where you're coming from, and sure it would be a nice safety net if you could just opt out of PVP to garauntee that you'll get a BP drop, but if you give people that opportunity you are killing every future antag, or alternative you're going to have a MASSIVE balance overhaul and redesign of the game.

The current system favors the raiders and if you lose, it is because: You suck at the game (aka he outplayed you AND your 3 teammates), Something unfortunate like a Disconnect or Mentor match happened, or you where greedy and made a shitty, fucking team composition so you got stomped on one of the 3 hallway maps because no one bothered to bring a character that can counter Valeria with the WHIP.

Sign me up even if i hate pvp I'll do it a few times before i get completely stressed out and then go back to pve only.

And there's your problem, because you just removed a HUGE chunk of the population from the pool.
Currently people Antag for two reasons: Because they love PVP or because they want cards/equilibrium bonus.
Queue times are usually around 10 minutes (at least on PC) and that's if you have every map selected. Now lets say you make the rewards good, this will increase the amount of antags who just want the reward. That's gonna increase the wait time, but not to unbearable levels.
But then you remove most of the population they can invade? Yeah those queue times are going to be abysmal, How much of your play time do you think you'd spend in PVP mode?
How much of any newbies time do you think they'd spend in PVP mode?
If that number is anything less than 100%, you're trading your enjoyment for the enjoyment of every antag by making their experience more miserable.

You are the ones trying to fundamentally change the game, so no you dont get to make demands like that.

We're done talking after this I can confirm for myself the type of pvper you are. Just a greifer,troll and harasser. You've admitted that you just want to have the advantage against raiders that are not prepared for pvp this is disgusting. The horrible lv gap matchmaking goes both ways so this is just something that needs to be fixed anyway. I'm very disappointed.

[Cryptek]

We're done talking after this I can confirm for myself the type of pvper you are. Just a greifer,troll and harasser. You've admitted that you just want to have the advantage against raiders that are not prepared for pvp this is disgusting. The horrible lv gap matchmaking goes both ways so this is just something that needs to be fixed anyway. I'm very disappointed.

And there we have the exact name calling that comes up from carebears anytime a PVPer tells them to suck it up. You have no empathy for the other side of the equation and it is so blatantly obvious that you view anyone who isn't on your side as the enemy, you ignore the consequences your suggestion would have because deep down: You would gladly trade every antags enjoyment for your own.

[Level9Drow]

Cryptek, it's so funny that all your responses start with cherry picked statements. You latch on to one statement in a whol paragraph or two and then ignore the rest and then claim victory.

[Tekato]

We're done talking after this I can confirm for myself the type of pvper you are. Just a greifer,troll and harasser. You've admitted that you just want to have the advantage against raiders that are not prepared for pvp this is disgusting. The horrible lv gap matchmaking goes both ways so this is just something that needs to be fixed anyway. I'm very disappointed.

And there we have the exact name calling that comes up from carebears anytime a PVPer tells them to suck it up. You have no empathy for the other side of the equation and it is so blatantly obvious that you view anyone who isn't on your side as the enemy, you ignore the consequences your suggestion would have because deep down: You would gladly trade every antags enjoyment for your own.

I could have let the other things slide but once you said players that try to farm blueprints are greedy and deserve to be stomped that pretty much confirmed for me you only care about yourself and curve stomping unsuspecting players and don't care at all for fair pvp matchups. I've already given plenty of suggestions to make the system more balanced but you just want us pve players to suffer through it or leave. Those are the only 2 options  you give us. After all this the names fit perfectly well.

[Cryptek]

Cryptek, it's so funny that all your responses start with cherry picked statements. You latch on to one statement in a whol paragraph or two and then ignore the rest and then claim victory.

It's funny how not one single proponent of splitting it into PVP and PVE is willing to tackle the fact that:
making it optional WILL decrease the fun of antags
Even if you make the rewards SO good that it'll occasionally entice a few PVE babies, they're not going to play it all the time, you admitted as much yourself.
NONE of you are willing to answer: Why is your enjoyment worth more than the Antags?
Why is it okay to drastically increase their queue times by dramatically decreasing the ALREADY tiny pool of players they can invade

Because all of you know deep down, that even a generous offering of saying people would PVE/PVP 50/50 would dramatically change the experience of playing as an antag. (they wouldn't play nearly that much and I dare any of you to say you'd opt into PVP more often than that just for the rewards. After all if that was the case we wouldn't be having a discussion, it would just be combined rallying cry to make PVP rewards better)
You cannot say with a straight face that you aren't ruining others fun with that system and if I have to start validating my fun to you, you can fuck off. I'm not asking you to validate your enjoyment of PVE and if you're saying someone elses fun is less valid just because you dont enjoy it, your opinion is shit.

[Brizzier]

The antagonistic mode, as it is today, shouldnt exist. Just as the Mentor Matches shouldnt either (at least not with this 20% xp reward).

The antagonistic mode, in its early stages, had a reason to exist. The player should stay in an Antagonist rank to get certain BPs or RPs. There was logic in everything. Today, the antagonist mode frightens novice players, annoys veterans, and brings smaller rewards to the antagonist himself.

Fortunately, I believe MercurySteam has plans to make the Antagonist Mode be useful and welcome to all players.

[Tekato]

Cryptek, it's so funny that all your responses start with cherry picked statements. You latch on to one statement in a whol paragraph or two and then ignore the rest and then claim victory.

It's funny how not one single proponent of splitting it into PVP and PVE is willing to tackle the fact that:
making it optional WILL decrease the fun of antags
Even if you make the rewards SO good that it'll occasionally entice a few PVE babies, they're not going to play it all the time, you admitted as much yourself.
NONE of you are willing to answer: Why is your enjoyment worth more than the Antags?
Why is it okay to drastically increase their queue times by dramatically decreasing the ALREADY tiny pool of players they can invade

Because all of you know deep down, that even a generous offering of saying people would PVE/PVP 50/50 would dramatically change the experience of playing as an antag. (they wouldn't play nearly that much and I dare any of you to say you'd opt into PVP more often than that just for the rewards. After all if that was the case we wouldn't be having a discussion, it would just be combined rallying cry to make PVP rewards better)
You cannot say with a straight face that you aren't ruining others fun with that system and if I have to start validating my fun to you, you can fuck off. I'm not asking you to validate your enjoyment of PVE and if you're saying someone elses fun is less valid just because you dont enjoy it, your opinion is shit.

Why would the antagonist enjoyment be decreased? Is it because you'll have to actually fight good team compositions and not pushovers? I agree the wait time might be longer at first but as the player base grows due to not killing it all off with antagonists in mentor matches or low lvs getting stomped by higher lvs. Things will improve and if the incentives are good enough more and more players will opt into it. There are players out there that enjoy pvp and will opt into these matches but if players keep leaving and this continues you won't have anyone left to play against.

This would only ruin the fun for antagonist that just want easy wins against bad teams. Other then the possibility longer wait time i do not see how this will ruin the fun of pvp.

[ArnoldCat]

I know some mod will delete this thread, they don't want us to argue about the problems of the game, even if the thread have good points...

So i gonna open one tab for every page and read it in calm when i return from work.

Its sad that the forum is more entertaining than the game...

[Cryptek]

This would only ruin the fun for antagonist that just want easy wins against bad teams. Other then the possibility longer wait time i do not see how this will ruin the fun of pvp.

There we have it again "your kind of fun isn't allowed because I disapprove".

Edit: Along with just handwaving "oh it'll be fine" to the population problem, if you want me to take you seriously say right now:
On an average day how many matches do you play
and then:
how many of those would you opt into PVP?
how many of those would you opt into if PVP didn't give much more than 20-30% increased rewards (because lets fair, beating an antag isn't hard, hell I proved it IN THIS THREAD, so they aren't going to give you 100-200% increased rewards for PVP)
Every single match that you say you'd opt out of PVP: You robbed an antag of the possibility of playing.

[Tekato]

This would only ruin the fun for antagonist that just want easy wins against bad teams. Other then the possibility longer wait time i do not see how this will ruin the fun of pvp.

There we have it again "your kind of fun isn't allowed because I disapprove".

Is that honestly what you want? To be able to fight teams that can't fight back?

[Cryptek]

Is that honestly what you want? To be able to fight teams that can't fight back?

"I cant into PVP therefor it's impossible to win against an antag"
GIT
GUD
vets have no excuses and the entire point of the thread was to protect new players in mentor matches.

[Dr.Kuzie]

Antagonists are too worried about their preys going away yo a pve mode... When sooner or later pve players will grow up tired of this situation and leave the game, and those who only enjoy PvP will be the ones remaining. Things will get lonely anyways.

[Tekato]

Is that honestly what you want? To be able to fight teams that can't fight back?

"I cant into PVP therefor it's impossible to win against an antag"
GIT
GUD
vets have no excuses and the entire point of the thread was to protect new players in mentor matches.

Ok at this point you're not making any sense. What?