Author Topic: Tolchok is still broken  (Read 15304 times)

MSE_Karen

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 01:20:10 PM
Hi guys,

Since this is a recurrent issue, I'm letting the design team know so they can evaluate the options regarding the Tolchok.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

Tekato

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 02:46:50 PM
Hi guys,

Since this is a recurrent issue, I'm letting the design team know so they can evaluate the options regarding the Tolchok.

Thank you very much for your feedback!
Oh no not another nerf if they keep this up it will be completely useless in pve. It already over heats so quickly and the damage to ads isn't that great.

xXGigglesXx

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 08:31:54 PM
I play with the Tolchok pretty regularly and I've gotta say that it has its weaknesses. The slow spinup, quick overheat, and garbage at long range means that it's not impossible to fight. It's just like any other character, if you choose the right antagonist, Kons is boned.

LordDraco3

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #18 on: October 03, 2018, 09:14:57 PM
I know it has always heated up quick, spun slow, and had dubious accuracy. None of that is what makes it awful though, nor is it the damage. It's always been the push. The constant, endless, impossible to escape push.

On my No Res video you can see our Shae get pushed off the bridge at one point despite trying to duck behind cover, being shot from a considerable distance. This weapon made a lot of people aware that Lycus' shield doesn't block push effects, he can be completely stunlocked through his shield by this gun, until he's either in a corner or off a ledge, despite taking 0 damage.

The nerfs need to target the problem area, and damage and heat were never the main problem. The video where I antagged with it above shows how dominating it is to anyone on the receiving end, when I killed 3 Raiders within 10 meters of me ALL while I was wounded. They all charged me to land a finisher and I just pushed them away until they died, including a shielded Lycus. The push is so fast and consistent that you can't even raise your gun to shoot back. It pushes anyone in any maneuver, be it jump, roll, whatever. I have wounded Kons as Alicia before and jumped literally in his face to finish him, and I always get pushed away to death because the first bullet pushes and I get re-pushed every half a second.

I've been on both sides of the gun enough to know that the push is ridiculous. I think the damage has dropped too much and is affecting pve, but push has only been strengthened with the last patch, pushing 7 meters instead of 5.

Tekato

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #19 on: October 03, 2018, 10:09:13 PM
I know it has always heated up quick, spun slow, and had dubious accuracy. None of that is what makes it awful though, nor is it the damage. It's always been the push. The constant, endless, impossible to escape push.

On my No Res video you can see our Shae get pushed off the bridge at one point despite trying to duck behind cover, being shot from a considerable distance. This weapon made a lot of people aware that Lycus' shield doesn't block push effects, he can be completely stunlocked through his shield by this gun, until he's either in a corner or off a ledge, despite taking 0 damage.

The nerfs need to target the problem area, and damage and heat were never the main problem. The video where I antagged with it above shows how dominating it is to anyone on the receiving end, when I killed 3 Raiders within 10 meters of me ALL while I was wounded. They all charged me to land a finisher and I just pushed them away until they died, including a shielded Lycus. The push is so fast and consistent that you can't even raise your gun to shoot back. It pushes anyone in any maneuver, be it jump, roll, whatever. I have wounded Kons as Alicia before and jumped literally in his face to finish him, and I always get pushed away to death because the first bullet pushes and I get re-pushed every half a second.

I've been on both sides of the gun enough to know that the push is ridiculous. I think the damage has dropped too much and is affecting pve, but push has only been strengthened with the last patch, pushing 7 meters instead of 5.
I feel like this isn't only an issue with just this gun. There are some shotgun ads that can stunlock aswell and a few other guns. So i think what they should do is give players some kind of resistance to push/stagger in general, like after a push you can't be pushed again for another 3 seconds. This should fix any stunlock issues currently in the game.

Lehi

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #20 on: October 04, 2018, 02:39:30 AM
I have never been stunlocked by 5th counsel minions unless I was surrounded by 3 or more.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 02:52:27 AM by Lehi »

Tekato

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #21 on: October 04, 2018, 03:15:03 AM
I have never been stunlocked by 5th counsel minions unless I was surrounded by 3 or more.
You probably haven't been in a mission with high enough mmr yet. The ads get pretty insane, to the point where you can't even grab aleph from a downed elite fifth council brute without getting pushed back to oblivion.

LoganMaze

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #22 on: October 04, 2018, 05:01:32 AM
how about this, the weapon wont push you when you are rolling/dodging, that way you can jump into cover if you are close to it and you have a mean to avoid being stunlock, what you guys think?

Hiero_Glyph

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #23 on: October 04, 2018, 05:08:00 AM
how about this, the weapon wont push you when you are rolling/dodging, that way you can jump into cover if you are close to it and you have a mean to avoid being stunlock, what you guys think?

It's better to add temporary kockback immunity after it procs on a player. That way it solves the problem for every weapon simultaneously. It would also prevent multiple knockback effect procing on the same player in succession.

Tekato

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #24 on: October 04, 2018, 05:16:38 AM
how about this, the weapon wont push you when you are rolling/dodging, that way you can jump into cover if you are close to it and you have a mean to avoid being stunlock, what you guys think?

It's better to add temporary kockback immunity after it procs on a player. That way it solves the problem for every weapon simultaneously. It would also prevent multiple knockback effect procing on the same player in succession.
Yup that's pretty much what i suggested, it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Ac3_f4ce

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #25 on: October 15, 2018, 03:36:30 AM
Lycus's shield considering it's the only shield built into a character should block all projectiles and also the push mechanic .  I'm surprised MS didn't think to buff his shield to counter that gun.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:55:33 PM by Ac3_f4ce »

MSE_Karen

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #26 on: October 16, 2018, 04:27:02 PM
 Hi again guys!

Just letting you know you'll see some changes for the O. Tolchok (we are evaluating how to make the experience less frustrating) in the next patch. We'll let you know when this update is out ;)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 04:29:20 PM by MSE_KarenHB »

Tekato

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #27 on: October 16, 2018, 04:41:19 PM
Great another weapon nerfed... Like I said already this is not the weapon's fault, the problem is we don't get any stun/stagger resistance after the initial hit. This is why we get stun/pushed so easily by shotgun fifth council enemies or loath's cookie gun etc. Just give everyone 2-3 seconds of CC immunity each time you get hit by a crowd control effect no need to nerf these guns.

Ac3_f4ce

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #28 on: October 16, 2018, 05:57:36 PM
When the community manager uses Valeria as her profile picture, something in my gut says i should take what she says with a grain of salt lol.

Deathprize

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Re: Tolchok is still broken
Reply #29 on: October 16, 2018, 06:56:07 PM
Just make it push without stagger that seems the easiest fix.