[Level9Drow]

I've been active on both in recent times. Not so much in the beginning, I was only active here. I made an account on Discord for the first time for this game. The communities in both places are VASTLY different.

Here on the official website forums, and as well as the Steam site for this game, there are a lot more people, not frequent, not 24/7 but Steam and Spacelords website see a lot more traffic of new player feedback, old players and everything in between. Obviously because of the nature of a forum it isn't an "active" thing like discord. but I noticed Discord has a small vocal minority because a certain kind of player has claimed it as their own.

Antagonists players. This causes a lot of new players and old school players who are primarily PvEers/Raiders to stay AWAY from Discord. there is hundreds of posts across Steam and this website with concerns regarding PvP, it being balanced, the fact that it's forced when there is such a good Coop PvE game here and yet the Discord opperates in a small echo chamber and discredits the overwhelming amount of criticisms on Steam and from these forums, or they flat out ignore it. And I feel this will hurt MSE in the long run.

I would encourage MSE to please look to their Steam Reviews and the feedback HERE on this website as it represents a larger amount of player feedback and to realize that Discord is a click of a minority of, let's just say, forward personalities to be kind, as they are highly dismissive of the larger issues Steam and the Forums are pointing out. I would encourage MSE to not let a loud majority hijack the fate of the game by alienating the silent majority that usually post here and on Steam.

The main point of contention I have seen for a while now is PvP. Outside of Discord players are asking for more balance at the very least and at the most to make two seperate modes, one for PvPers and the other for PvEers so that PvEers could play in peace and not be bothered by Antagonists who will ruin their fun and progress. Any PvEers who attempts to enter this wolves den are quickly ostracized, shit down, memes fly up all over the place about dead horses and "this again" even though THEY are the minority and there is an ARMY is disgruntled players regarding PvP. There are still some decent people there on Discord of course, but even they are PvPers or pro PvP. The pure numbers of Discord members that are active there are still way lower than the  history of Steam and Spacelords sire members.

I honestly feel like there is only certain opinions that are "allowed" there. And so I am slowly being pushed out of the den of Antags that is discord. The problem is I will have to eventually go the way so many other loyal players have and be pushed out of the game by antags and pro PvP centric players. I have 700+ levels, and two thousand+ hours on this game. And it would be sad to leave and make a new feedback post on Steam and Here in regards to my experience with the game and why I left. I don't want this to happen. So...

Again, I would encourage MSE to not have tunnel vision on the Discord and to realize that beyond the blinder are fields of other players mostly new and middling and some old. And to please be careful for a small minority who is making a lot of racket. You may find that what they say and stand for is very different from the vast majority of players who aren't part of that "clique". You have to decide what is best for the longevity of the game and what will ensure new players come AND stay and not uninstall and runoff to Steam or here to leave their feedback.


Thanks!

[Placelord]

You would think the official forums would be the place to go to get the straight dope, but nope. Is pretty common to come here with a question about mechanics and get an answer to the effect of "the devs already answered this on the discord". I don't know about the discord favoring antags but it does seem like MSE is more active in providing detailed info there.

[Level9Drow]

There's a lot pf people here to that don't go there. Discord seems to be where all the antags go and the forums here seem to be where the Raiders mostly are. MSE needs to think of a way to make the game good for both players. There were a few good ideas thrown around on Discord when we finally were able to get a discussion going without being ostracized. But the ONLY reason we were able to pull it off was because there was three of us PvEers there bringing the argument there, and a few middling folks there who are generally nice people, like Deadlyweiss and Moe, even though Moe started out a bit rough we got to a good point.

What was funny is all the usual sharks VANISHED. As son as Whitt, Mr.Ghost and me were evening the odds in the argement they all POOF gone. Like wolves, they only attack if they have the advantage of numbers, then they troll and bait you into a defensive reaction and then they get the mods to mute, block, etc..., but when the odds are even the slither away in silence because they knew there was a REAL fight on their hands. This is why we need more PvEers on Discord, we REALLY do. It would even the odds I feel.

To be clear, this isn't an indictment against ALL the Antags there, there was some that were really hashing out good points with us in an honorable way. I was very thankful to them for taking the convo serious and not responding with memes and snark, but honesty.

[MSE_Karen]

Hi Level9Drow,

Long time no see. I have seen you have replied in different threads, so I'll try to answer to all your concerns in a single one since you are addressing the same issues in all of them.

We have been clear since the very beginning about the nature of the game: 4 Raiders trying to complete a mission while, occasionally, an Antagonist prevents them from doing it.

We never said we wanted "misery and trolling" as you stated on another thread. Toxicity is not tolerated and when we say there's something we answered on Discord, we are always open and explain things again. There's not such thing as favoritism on Discord, it's simply quicker and immediate. We always read the forums and reply to your doubts as well.

As we have explained before, separating both modes would result in higher waiting times, impacting negatively on the experience.

We know there are a lot of players who love playing as Raiders and we listen to your concerns, but, as our data reveals, there are also plenty of people that enjoy Antagonizing. Saying it's a minority only present in Discord is not accurate.

We are actually planning on doing streamings in our Twitch channel and that includes playing as both Raiders and Antagonists. We are experiencing the same issues as you and learning from them. Truth is we keep improving the game every day and proof of that is the Spacelords Roadmap, which is based on our players' feedback and will change the game drastically. In fact, there will be a new progression system called Adventure mode that will add new rewards for both Raiders and Antagonists.

We really appreciate your enthusiasm and passion to improve the game, but we encourage you to keep playing accepting Spacelords is a different shooter because the Antagonist feature makes it unique.

That being said, rest assured we'll keep listening to the community here, but also on Steam, Discord and all our social media channels.

Thank you!

[Level9Drow]

Thanks Karen for responding.

If mandated PvP is fated to stay could you address the issues that cause problems within PvP?
1. Does MSE have plans to increase rewards system for Raiders so that there is not a sense of loss and wasted time when they lose to antag? This should also be for the rewards for Antagonists to when they lose as well. I think people wouldn't feel so bad about PvP is the loss wasn't so punishing. As a Raider I can get better rewards from normal PvE mission than if I get defeating an antag. This gives very little incentive for many raiders to want to commit to an antag fight, often my squad just surrenders because it's more efficient to not waste time on a game that will result in lower rewards. A suggestion by Draco was to make losing rewards in PvP as good, or nearly as good at least, as average winning rewards in PvE, this way people would see invasions as a bonus and not a hindrance.

2. Mentor matches and antag also. If PvP is mandated this is a major issue in that having a tier 0, 6 or 5 in a game against a higher tiered antag makes for a pretty crappy time for most Raiders. the outcome is almost s forgone conclusion and even when you win you aren't rewarded properly for your handicap. Could you perhaps increase the rewards for mentor matches and also increase the threshold of what tier player would qualify as a mentor match? A suggestion would be tier 0, 6 and 5 count for mentor matches. And to reward higher tiered raiders in proportion to how many of them there are and with gold and faction instead, XP is not very valuable at higher levels. Also, if the rewards could be of an approximate amount that would compensate for the loss the mentor match brings.

Any comment on this would be fantastic.

[Whitebleidd]

Karen, MSE, you have a very special game going here, it is very unique, a new and overall top notch take on the 3rd person shooter genre, and I would be a shame for you guys to sell yourselves short, the reason it’s so special, so unique, involves the true core of the game (no, not antags) but the systems that have been set in its foundation, the momentum in the character’s movement and how it affects gameplay in such a massive way, which additionally allows for the removal of that pesky, boring, sprint button, the unique way of acquiring ammunition, the stress mechanic and how it ties to both stealth and health regen, the aleph system and how it changes the dynamics of combat not only through stacking, which gives elites and raiders new or improved abilities but also in how it enables important risk and reward manoeuvres because of the temporary invincibility it provides when acquired. Ofc we also have the uniqueness of all characters and weapons in both their visual design and actual gameplay, etc, point is this game is much MUCH more than its PVP and it’s a shame you guys don’t embrace that more.

As for "misery and trolling", whether you wanted it or not (though it is disingenuous that you guys deny it when you have boasted about it in interviews and promotional material…) it’s there and in force, it’s the biggest, most glaring issue the community has and sadly although players share in the blame, you, the devs are the main culprit, intended or not the system is designed for it (antags), as it is right know it’s going to attract the worst of the PVP community, the sad type of player not looking for a fair fight, the type that enjoys trolling, that enjoys wasting and ruining other ppls fun and rewards, the asstwats that giggle like a schoolgirl while spewing nonsense about collecting salt, and saying “separating both modes would result in higher waiting times, impacting negatively on the experience.” Is really troubling, basically the antag experience, their experience takes precedence over all others, which is discouraging.

[Lancer]

As we have explained before, separating both modes would result in higher waiting times, impacting negatively on the experience.

Hi keren? I'm sorry to bring this up but this tid bit you said is an arkhams razor, the  antag system is also impacting the game negatively. It might not be really bad yet but it needs to be fixed or you guys might not get as many new players as you hope. Most turn away because of it and those who arnt are not concurrent players. IDK how many are but im sure there are plenty of players who just take 6 - 12 month breaks from this game thinking "Maybe its not so bad now" But run into the same problem again. i can't wait for the updates. I know the teams real busy pushing Quality content and subsequent patches. Have a wonderful day.

[MrScratch]

You would think the official forums would be the place to go to get the straight dope, but nope. Is pretty common to come here with a question about mechanics and get an answer to the effect of "the devs already answered this on the discord"...

Indeed, it's quite unprofessional.

[Level9Drow]

A little update on the unofficial Discord. They have now made discussing optional antag and optional PvP a punishable "offense":
https://discordapp.com/channels/315765053364109312/568185815814111262

I think you guys should make an official Discord. There is no doubt at this point that there is a strong bias there now. And that the conversation is being dictated by, not only some of the members, but by the management.

If MSE is fine with this, then that's sad.

And if you are a new player who finds mandated PvP a bit caustic then know that you are not welcome to the unofficial Discord.

[Whitebleidd]

Yea its quite sad, though not surprising at all, the place is incredibly biased, all mods are known antags and I’ve yet to see a single antag, whether they are mods or not from the discord, admit they want a fair fight, in a true sense, THEY DON’T, that’s why they want to shut down discussion on the subject, they want it all to remain as is, they want to keep on fighting against new players and PVE players, they say they want to “improve”, “compete”, but is just a facade, all they want are moths to the flame. They say they love the game, yet they don’t mind annoying others, potentially to the point of leaving the game, which ofc doesn’t help at all, the community is already small, that is no secret, so opening up gameplay possibilities for PVE players to comfortably join and stay can only be good.

It’s quite funny that when a youtuber like “TheGamerTronShow” sheds some publicity on the game, one of the highest voted comments is someone warning others about forced PVP, many will understandably not even give the game a chance after knowing that.

Today I imagine antags were overjoyed since “A Fistful of Sand” was the rare BP mission when we just got shae’s new rare weapon, I can bet there wasn’t a single match played during the rotation that didn’t have an antag trying to mess up a mission that is grossly overturned in their favor.

[Cazic-Thule]

Gonna keep it short and sweet, this problem is 100% the devs own fault. They have publicly stated from day 1 on multiple sources such as the subreddit or this very forum that the antag system was intentionally designed to troll people and make them mad. They have also publicly stated they aren't going to change that no matter what and have somehow tried to deny that decision isn't just them letting dumb pride slowly kill their game while they refuse to admit the forced pvp was a huge mistake and is undeniably the #1 reason this game will never get a real playerbase. Despite being a promising game with tons of potential Spacelords will all but certainly fail and be cancelled due to lack of concurrent players. The roadmap speaks for itself, they're ready to not only fall on their own sword but shoot themselves in the foot while they fall.

[Level9Drow]

Just today they had a well know Antag who is known for being toxic and trolling gloat that he drew out a survive at least 6 times lasting an hour for these poor Raiders. He would kill them and then let them survive, rinse repeat, only to kill them in the end when he was done toying with them. And you know what they did there? They all applauded him. They gloated with him, showered him with favor over this griefing.

This is what I'm talking about with that Discord. They act like you'r such an ass hole for bringing up concerns, make mocking memes, reply with hateful snark and then when you bring it up with the mods they all decide that the subject is off limits now, BUT when assholes posts how they grief people it's accolades and praise. And when you point it out that it's toxic behavior, well what a party pooper and buzz kill to their blood lust that is. 

It's funny in this day and age when kind considerate people are considered morally reprehensible and pure vitriolic assholes are put on pedestals. Only on the Discord.

[Level9Drow]

UPDATE! You can now no longer talk about Harec and Ignis in regards to PvP. It is now NOT ALLOWED to talk about these things. The list grows larger. If you do, they mob complains and you will get muted because the mods have no choice, the mob holds them at ransom. Plenty of phony accounts no doubt as well to fill in the ranks of pitch forks. It's important to know that these topics weren't outlined in the Server Update rules they posted. There was NO formal declaration that these subjects were off limits.

NOTE: ONLY pro PvP, and greifing vids allowed there now. You can insult people with memes there, it is allowed. So long as that group is in the minority. They don't have the reporting power to defend themselves. So if any of you want to pretend now that it's not a mob mentality there I can assure you that you are objectively wrong.

[Whitebleidd]

Just today they had a well know Antag who is known for being toxic and trolling gloat that he drew out a survive at least 6 times lasting an hour for these poor Raiders. He would kill them and then let them survive, rinse repeat, only to kill them in the end when he was done toying with them. And you know what they did there? They all applauded him. They gloated with him, showered him with favor over this griefing.

This here is exactly what goes on, actual toxicity is rewarded in the discord, it’s sad and bad for the community. That they decided to pick and choose a bunch off legitimate topics on the game and ban them is so incredibly hypocritical, since toxic discussions are encouraged.

[Lancer]

Keran your community just collapsed on its self and is beyond devided, something big has to happen and happen soon. Otherwise things will get real  bad real quik. At least we have the forums here but who'd hold their ground here? When the rest of the community bows out? Maybe some very passionate souls but other then that it'll just spiral out. I hope that doesn't happen but it looks like just a matter of time...