[Ebisu_rkz]

This is very interesting feedback!

Allow me join you and see if I can add some perspective to the debate by defining the aims and goals of the reward-sharing system:

The driving force behind this system is player choice. Raiders of the Broken Planet has very different rewards that the players may want to unlock. We want the players to be able to focus on their own goals. We also want them to have to take interesting decisions in the process:
- Which mission awards more of the thing I'm interested in?
- Given the choices of the other players, is there a better option left out for me? Is there a big reward that I can snatch?
- Do I have great synergy with these players that are not interested in the same reward as me? Maybe I can invite them to my squad and play a couple more games with them.

The blueprint raffle is a cathartic, memorable moment. It can be as much frustrating to lose as it can be ecstatic to win. Note that the reward system forces no random outcomes on the players. They can choose not to participate in the blueprint raffle. There's 4 rewards for 4 players, so there's at least one guaranteed full reward awaiting the player who chooses not to participate.

Loot sharing is a common game mechanic in dungeon-based cooperative games. It creates dynamics between the players and a soft offer-and-demand system. Note that rewards are given out for losses as well as for victories. The only factor governing the quantity of the rewards is the speed and advance in the mission.

Even if a mission is completely impossible to beat, and Dr. Kuzman has got the Raiders on their knees, it's still worthwhile to fight until the end, because any amount of progress made on the boss' HP bar will reflect on the rewards. This is a very important message that we want to send to each Raider: No matter how impossible it seemed, every little push you made to make it to the finish had it's reward.

I think that your idea is nice, as I said before, I like the part of the blueprint. I have played a long time in dungeons games and I liked that.

But I think that the part that falls apart is that one:

- Given the choices of the other players, is there a better option left out for me? Is there a big reward that I can snatch?
- Do I have great synergy with these players that are not interested in the same reward as me? Maybe I can invite them to my squad and play a couple more games with them.

That idea is from an ideal world, something that probably won't happen IMO. While you are expecting cooperation for the best reward, I have experienced frustration for having to switch to another reward. And what will happen when there are metas out there or cards that are much more important than others... then everyone will be looking for this reward.

Also there is another problem IMO. The fact that each map have a different reward distribution I find it cool and I like that feature, but it's a double edge blade. If I am doing X mission because it is the mission that drops more X tokens, there is a high chance that the other 3 raiders are here for the same reward, so at the end we all end with less rewards or someone has to sacrifice himself and switch to another one, the last part is the one that I have seen more in the betas, but I don't think a lot of ppl are testing the cards tbh.

I would be interested if there will be a beta where we can try any card of the progression system to test them. I am not used to progression systems so small (only 1 active card with small bonuses and little differences between the rare card and the common one), so maybe my opinon is biased.

I think that the whole reward and progression system need more testing and maybe change some things if necessary.

[WYRDBOY]

What I really like about the current system is the mind-games part, bluffing and trying to manipulate people into picking something else in PUGs is fun.

Yes, I bet griefing people is tons of fun, no? Like I said, objectively bad. If you really want to go against other players, it should be limited to the antagonist system.

Overreacting a bit?
The system serves a purpose, even if the devs don't admit it and it is to artificially lengthen playtime and keep people playing. At launch there probably won't be much content and without needing to replay missions, people will chew through the game very fast and leave it until the next DLC.
If this is needed to keep a healthy amount of players, it is fine by me.
That said, losing the blueprint roll could offer some currency or something.

[Rhynerd]

At the very least, it would be nice to have a small amount of any of the three currencies (or maybe a small chunk of all of them) guaranteed, even if you don't choose or receive a reward.

[stridedxeno]

Take for example the blueprints, if all players select it, only one of them will be awarded, while the other 3 get NOTHING. That's right, playing for like 20~ minutes, even successfully completing a mission against an antagonist as well, your potential reward can even be NOTHING. It doesn't even make sense from a lore perspective since we aren't mercenaries or even actual raiders, we're playing as a rebel faction that has to defend the planet against the actual raiders.

I don't see the FUN in getting NOTHING for my efforts.

tell that to the people in vegas.

[Keyixa]

What I really like about the current system is the mind-games part, bluffing and trying to manipulate people into picking something else in PUGs is fun.

Yes, I bet griefing people is tons of fun, no? Like I said, objectively bad. If you really want to go against other players, it should be limited to the antagonist system.

Overreacting a bit?
The system serves a purpose, even if the devs don't admit it and it is to artificially lengthen playtime and keep people playing. At launch there probably won't be much content and without needing to replay missions, people will chew through the game very fast and leave it until the next DLC.
If this is needed to keep a healthy amount of players, it is fine by me.
That said, losing the blueprint roll could offer some currency or something.

Sure, just get aggresive when you defend this broken system. This is gonna do nothing but turn players away, not even F2P games use this sort of slot machine systems.
Warframe is the best example of how it can work. This just invites griefing, massive RNG, and even getting decreased rewards or none, upon successful completion.

This won't get people playing more, it will do the opposite, drive them away since it's as anti-player as it gets. No sane person would pay for a gambling system to get attached to their game.

[WYRDBOY]

Sure, just get aggressive when you defend this broken system.

I'm sorry if you think I'm being aggressive here, I don't feel like I've crossed any line towards you that you haven't towards me.
Even though I can see we have a different idea of what kind of grind/RNG systems are acceptable, it's worth discussing because the devs need feedback to make this game as good as possible.

This is gonna do nothing but turn players away, not even F2P games use this sort of slot machine systems.
Warframe is the best example of how it can work. This just invites griefing, massive RNG, and even getting decreased rewards or none, upon successful completion.

As the dev said, this kind of loot-sharing is used in many games, B2P ones and even P2P ones like WoW, where sometimes you have to grind for months to get your drop or collect multiple items for a set. Here it's much simpler, you only need one blueprint which you roll for against 3 people, most of the time even less and if you win, you're good to go.

This won't get people playing more, it will do the opposite, drive them away since it's as anti-player as it gets. No sane person would pay for a gambling system to get attached to their game.

This may drive away SOME players, others won't mind. People pay for worse gambling as I said, and you know why? Because they enjoy the gameplay (in worse cases they are addicts ), and if you don't enjoy playing these missions over and over, this game won't offer you much I'm afraid.
The devs also have the incentive to keep you playing/grinding, by keeping the rewards low, so splitting it makes sense in that case.
Keep in mind that the game will be "very cheap", but will have microtransactions.
Now I do not know if you can use paid currency for anything other than cosmetics, but it's not impossible, so that would be another reason for this system.

[Keyixa]

Sure, just get aggressive when you defend this broken system.

I'm sorry if you think I'm being aggressive here, I don't feel like I've crossed any line towards you that you haven't towards me.
Even though I can see we have a different idea of what kind of grind/RNG systems are acceptable, it's worth discussing because the devs need feedback to make this game as good as possible.

This is gonna do nothing but turn players away, not even F2P games use this sort of slot machine systems.
Warframe is the best example of how it can work. This just invites griefing, massive RNG, and even getting decreased rewards or none, upon successful completion.

As the dev said, this kind of loot-sharing is used in many games, B2P ones and even P2P ones like WoW, where sometimes you have to grind for months to get your drop or collect multiple items for a set. Here it's much simpler, you only need one blueprint which you roll for against 3 people, most of the time even less and if you win, you're good to go.

This won't get people playing more, it will do the opposite, drive them away since it's as anti-player as it gets. No sane person would pay for a gambling system to get attached to their game.

This may drive away SOME players, others won't mind. People pay for worse gambling as I said, and you know why? Because they enjoy the gameplay (in worse cases they are addicts ), and if you don't enjoy playing these missions over and over, this game won't offer you much I'm afraid.
The devs also have the incentive to keep you playing/grinding, by keeping the rewards low, so splitting it makes sense in that case.
Keep in mind that the game will be "very cheap", but will have microtransactions.
Now I do not know if you can use paid currency for anything other than cosmetics, but it's not impossible, so that would be another reason for this system.

Yes, a system that has players compete for their rewards, RNG, antagonist that can fail you the mission, long duration matches with around 20+ min, this being a huge problem with the system grading you on speed, as well as number of deaths which also cuts into your rewards, griefing on the rewards system with other players potentially just picking whatever you pick, just to cut into your rewards, this can happen even when failing so you get either extremely few currency or even none, and this isn't even getting into the gameplay balance problems, as well as the economy ones, and this is just for multiplayer, solo and even antagonist have their issues as well.

You can keep defending this system but don't expect anyone else to swallow this lottery trash.
I've been playing Warframe since closed beta and they had similar problems but the game is vastly different today, after 4 years. If it would have stayed the same, with the same issues, the player base would be nonexistent.

I've already listed the reasons why this system is disconnected with the rest of the game and doesn't benefit it, in an objective manner.
The players don't adapt to the game, the game adapts to the players or else it's gone.

[stridedxeno]

-looks at most of the 2 page post- ....are you sure it would turn people away??  I mean the fact the oldest MMO"s like WoW and EVE(<--- not a good pick but still relevant) practically have a dice system, And yet still alot of people play it. 20 min??? they spend 4 hours in one raid sessions, Maybe even more through trial and error.                                             

Point is, make a poll and post it somewhere and see if they agree with....... your opinion

[PrimaryParadox]

The loot system is no different from any other game out there that requires a player to  play for a random reward. The difference here is that players can see the drop when it appears. Competing for the drops is a nice added change to a system that  usually rewards you based on chance. Everyone here seems to be salty because they cane see the reward and have to make a decision on if they want to compete for it.  The bottom line is that if you couldnt see the drop and you got nothing you would all be chalking it up to RNG like every other game out there. This wont hurt the game at all, get a mic or keyboard and TALK to your team for rewards. Once you have the BP then you wont be selecting it again so as the game progresses less people will want the reward. How about we not shit all over something new that gives a player choice and let them develop the game.

[stridedxeno]

The loot system is no different from any other game out there that requires a player to  play for a random reward. The difference here is that players can see the drop when it appears. Competing for the drops is a nice added change to a system that  usually rewards you based on chance. Everyone here seems to be salty because they cane see the reward and have to make a decision on if they want to compete for it.  The bottom line is that if you couldnt see the drop and you got nothing you would all be chalking it up to RNG like every other game out there. This wont hurt the game at all, get a mic or keyboard and TALK to your team for rewards. Once you have the BP then you wont be selecting it again so as the game progresses less people will want the reward. How about we not shit all over something new that gives a player choice and let them develop the game.

              only a few people are salty...

[Rhynerd]

This wont hurt the game at all, get a mic or keyboard and TALK to your team for rewards.

Have they implemented any means to communicate with other people yet? Last time I checked, you can only use the warning and gesture system to communicate with teammates.

[WYRDBOY]

Have they implemented any means to communicate with other people yet? Last time I checked, you can only use the warning and gesture system to communicate with teammates.

On consoles, supposedly yes, on PC, nope.

[Keyixa]

-looks at most of the 2 page post- ....are you sure it would turn people away??  I mean the fact the oldest MMO"s like WoW and EVE(<--- not a good pick but still relevant) practically have a dice system, And yet still alot of people play it. 20 min??? they spend 4 hours in one raid sessions, Maybe even more through trial and error.                                             

Point is, make a poll and post it somewhere and see if they agree with....... your opinion

Thanks for stanking up the thread with pointless replies. Don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees. Objectively, it's a terrible system.

You can argue semantics all you want. It's mind-blowingly stupid to have a reward system based on an RNG lottery system that has players go AGAINST each other in a COOPERATIVE game, with even the currency you do get (aside from gold to purchase blueprints) going into more RNG with the character and faction points to purchase cards at random that marginally improve your character (since Aleph boosts are so situational and scarce).

So, since no one else seems to add anything of value to the thread, I will lock this.

[RELLIK]

Have to say I was finding rewards increasingly frustrating. Currently even if you have the blueprint you can bet on it and potentially win the same thing again/screw other players over royally. I unfortunately had this happen, perhaps others as well. MAYBE banning previous winners from entering blueprints they already own could mitigate some frustration for other players, however with the current drop rate I kinda doubt it. Granted still beta and no communications, getting NOTHING because you basically HAVE to bet on blueprints to get new weapons is extremely off putting.

But I dont think it should be gutted/replaced with standard progression necessarily. Bluffing is fun  I'd honestly like to see the reward system evolved. Its a shame you couldnt split your pick/place 2 bets. IE: If you want all the class points double down on them, if you want a blue print you may put ONE (1 max per player) on it and another on something else. However, only placing 1 bet on class/gold/faction nets you 0.5 while placing 2 gives the usual 1.0 (assuming nobody else has bet).

[WYRDBOY]

This thread, ...unlocked? Weird...

Have to say I was finding rewards increasingly frustrating. Currently even if you have the blueprint you can bet on it and potentially win the same thing again/screw other players over royally. I unfortunately had this happen, perhaps others as well. MAYBE banning previous winners from entering blueprints they already own could mitigate some frustration for other players, however with the current drop rate I kinda doubt it. Granted still beta and no communications, getting NOTHING because you basically HAVE to bet on blueprints to get new weapons is extremely off putting.

You are mistaken, after you aquire a blueprint, you are forbidden from selecting it in the future. So idk how it happened to you, but if it did, then it was a bug.