[Agent-Z46]

So antags want the right to ruin the experience for others without anyone having a say on the matter (since apparently having a pve mode is a big no no), but when the raiders decide to ruin the experience then that’s when it’s bad, hmmm sounds unfair…

You're comparing playing competively and trying to win to actively sabotaging your own team.

[Hiero_Glyph]

So antags want the right to ruin the experience for others without anyone having a say on the matter (since apparently having a pve mode is a big no no), but when the raiders decide to ruin the experience then that’s when it’s bad, hmmm sounds unfair…

You're comparing playing competively and trying to win to actively sabotaging your own team.

Absolutely not. Some of us are running characters that are NOT competitive to try and get blueprints or running weak characters that don't have a good weapon because we need faction and/or gold and they are part of that faction or have bounty hunter. The ONLY player that is prepared to play competitively is the antagonist since they know going into the game what is at stake.

[Ac3_f4ce]

We are not ruining anything, we are just playing the game as it was intended. MSE made this game.  Not us. Do you understand? This was never a just PVE game. If players are coming into this game expecting to only play PVE they are mistaken. That's on them not MSE.

[Hiero_Glyph]

We are not ruining anything, we are just playing the game as it was intended. MSE made this game.  Not us. Do you understand? This was never a just PVE game. If players are coming into this game expecting to only play PVE they are mistaken. That's on them not MSE.

What, no 'get good' to go with that flimsy rationale? As it stands now the antagonist system has no benefit to the community other than flipping to antag cards. So you can talk about how it's part of the game all you want, but that doesn't somehow make it a benefit to anyone since everyone gets rewarded less.

It would be like someone driving 20mph on the highway. Sure, if there is no posted minimum speed then it is legal and allowed, but it doesn't make it a benefit to anyone if it could be avoided. And even if you have something strapped to your car that requires you going slow, you could choose to go to the right lane and put your hazard lights on so that you do not make others suffer for no reason. Playing as an antag is no different in the game's current state and that is why the community has such a problem with it. It is you purposely slowing down the progress of everyone else in the game, and even if it is allowed it could also be entirely avoided. You simply choose to obstruct others.

[Ac3_f4ce]

Its "GIT GUD" @Hiero_Glyph. And I havent said that because im trying to show respect.  If I were trying to belittle or show you no regard then yea i would say "GIT GUD".

I like the analogy as well, but let think of it another. Lets say Spacelords is the road and the speed limit is 20mph. The guy going 20mph hes ok. For some 20 mph isnt good enough they want to go faster  20 is too slow. And now their stuck behind the getting frustrated because he is going too slow. Theyre inherently going against the grain by trying to go faster. And then it gets to a point where the start to honk and swerve behind the guy until they eventually try to blow past him. Thus creating a very extreme and stressful situation for not only them, for the driver just minding his own business and other innocent bystanders.

[Deathprize]

Is it not more akin to a fighting game were you are playing single player but other people randomly challenge you, you can't decline to play with them either.

If you win back into the fight with the AI you go, if you lose the same however, if you are one hit away from finishing the AI on multiple occasions it gets annoying fast.

Say it takes 30 minutes to get through arcade mode, it will be increased up until nearly an hour if random people invaded. If you just want to see the end for each character it could nearly double the time by the time you finished it will all the characters.

I feel the system is the way it is to gate progress in the game to a degree, because by playing as or against an antagonist the level and weapon progression is slowed. This stops people rushing through and then forgetting about the game to a degree. Here the rate of progress if you are just starting is incredibly slow so it isn't needed.

In addition the level differences and forge differences can make any PvP match horribly unbalanced. I feel like everybody should be on an even playing field in this regard. Which again having it separate helps with as you won't dive in with underpowered gear if you don't have to. As whether it's an issue or not a 500+ player stomping a group of new players will not feel fair from their point of view, and as you have to play as a raider for the first 10 levels will make some people just give up on the game straight away. This is exactly what we are seeing and why all the complaints are about antagonists, mentor matches and people quitting or throwing games.

It's less of a problem for the antagonist as you can choose to play the mode with a 200+ character with all the guns maxed out, new players can't do that.

Sorry that's a bit long in the end Niether side is right or wrong, but we can all agree more people sticking with the game is a good thing, so why wouldn't any changes that help with that be added?

[Hiero_Glyph]

Its "GIT GUD" @Hiero_Glyph. And I havent said that because im trying to show respect.  If I were trying to belittle or show you no regard then yea i would say "GIT GUD".

I like the analogy as well, but let think of it another. Lets say Spacelords is the road and the speed limit is 20mph. The guy going 20mph hes ok. For some 20 mph isnt good enough they want to go faster  20 is too slow. And now their stuck behind the getting frustrated because he is going too slow. Theyre inherently going against the grain by trying to go faster. And then it gets to a point where the start to honk and swerve behind the guy until they eventually try to blow past him. Thus creating a very extreme and stressful situation for not only them, for the driver just minding his own business and other innocent bystanders.

Except they can go faster. Do the math. Do you earn more or less when queuing as an antag or a raider (and please include queue times in this)? So even the antag gains less. So playing as an antag makes everyone go slower than they should.

And for comparisons sake, playing CoD, Battlefield, Overwatch, etc. is not optional PvP since no games will even queue up without players on both teams, whereas Spacelords doesn't require an antag to play the game. So not only is playing as an antag optional, but it rewards everyone less.

So I guess the question is: why do you insist on playing as an antag?

[Ac3_f4ce]

I play as an Antag because iits fun. I like playing against other players. I like being an antag and I like fighting Antags.

Now here's my question. If Antagonist missions rewarded more gold, faction, and XP would you be ok with Antagonist missions? This applies to both roles.

[Hiero_Glyph]

I play as an Antag because iits fun. I like playing against other players. I like being an antag and I like fighting Antags.

Now here's my question. If Antagonist missions rewarded more gold, faction, and XP would you be ok with Antagonist missions? This applies to both roles.

Now you're understanding. I'm not against the antag system and I actually enjoy it. My problem is that the rewards do not scale based on the effort and this is what I am hoping MSE will improve.

Other things like preventing antags in mentor matches is more about player retention. Hiding player levels and only showing their tier wouk also help in making things appear more even and less unfair. Making queueing against antags optional would also keep player numbers up, but to compensate MSE needs to create exclusive rewards/challenges that are only available when playing as/against an antag. This would also let MSE create a 4v1 mode that always has an antag. So the goal isn't to remove antags from the game but to make them a benefit for everyone.

[Ac3_f4ce]

i think We've been on the same page for awhile now actually haha. I am also for Antags not on Mentor missions. Rookie players should get a feel for the game b4 fighting other players.

Idk if you read my other threads but I mentioned Mentor matches should be toggled. But maybe i wasn't clear with my explanation on how it works. I feel that mentor and Antag should be the 2 sides of the game. You can toggle between Antag and Mentor. If you select mentor, you will que up with rookies, and no Antags will be on your missions but if you don't want to mentor select Antag. In which you will no longer que up for mentor matches but you may or may not encounter Antags on your missions.

Now with the mentor matches, enemies will have to get a slight boost to stats to compensate for the higher level players but only enough to really challenge the rookie players.

[Whitebleidd]

Now here's my question. If Antagonist missions rewarded more gold, faction, and XP would you be ok with Antagonist missions? This applies to both roles.

Trying to fix it with higher rewards is inefficient because it only solves the issue for some, an option to opt out of antag queue (pve mode) solves it for all.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Now here's my question. If Antagonist missions rewarded more gold, faction, and XP would you be ok with Antagonist missions? This applies to both roles.

Trying to fix it with higher rewards is inefficient because it only solves the issue for some, an option to opt out of antag queue (pve mode) solves it for all.

It's slightly more complicated than that since you do need to incentivize players to pay as/against an antag, otherwise queue times will suffer for the antag mode. As I noted, I don't think giving better rewards is the answer but if MSE added monthly challenges then players could reach specific milestones and get additional rewards.

For example, you could earn faction/gold for missions completed, missions won, kills/assists vs players, recovering from a downed state, etc. These would reset every month and the best rewards would require a high number of games and skilled play to achieve. It should be noted that these challenges would not be attainable in the PvE-only mode.

[Whitebleidd]

It's slightly more complicated than that since you do need to incentivize players to pay as/against an antag, otherwise queue times will suffer for the antag mode. As I noted, I don't think giving better rewards is the answer but if MSE added monthly challenges then players could reach specific milestones and get additional rewards.

For example, you could earn faction/gold for missions completed, missions won, kills/assists vs players, recovering from a downed state, etc. These would reset every month and the best rewards would require a high number of games and skilled play to achieve. It should be noted that these challenges would not be attainable in the PvE-only mode.

That’s just not true and one of the issues in the logic of some pvp players, not only in this game. Those that play pvp should do so 1st and foremost simply because they enjoy it, pvp should not get anything  more ideally, when devs are fair, that said, I wouldn’t mind if they want to give extra currency (gold, fp, whatever) as long as they don’t block actual content, like bps, cosmetics, etc to pvp.

[Hiero_Glyph]

It's slightly more complicated than that since you do need to incentivize players to pay as/against an antag, otherwise queue times will suffer for the antag mode. As I noted, I don't think giving better rewards is the answer but if MSE added monthly challenges then players could reach specific milestones and get additional rewards.

For example, you could earn faction/gold for missions completed, missions won, kills/assists vs players, recovering from a downed state, etc. These would reset every month and the best rewards would require a high number of games and skilled play to achieve. It should be noted that these challenges would not be attainable in the PvE-only mode.

That’s just not true and one of the issues in the logic of some pvp players, not only in this game. Those that play pvp should do so 1st and foremost simply because they enjoy it, pvp should not get anything  more ideally, when devs are fair, that said, I wouldn’t mind if they want to give extra currency (gold, fp, whatever) as long as they don’t block actual content, like bps, cosmetics, etc to pvp.

That's a shortsighted viewpoint. Players want the most reward for the least effort. Anyway, my suggestion would allow PvE players to enjoy the game without ever running into an antag, but it would also provide a play list that is true to the developers original intent. The only exception is that it does so in a manner that is very similar to the current battle pass using challenges and additional rewards such as gold and faction points upon attaining specific milestones. It takes nothing away from PvE and gives them the ability to enjoy the game unhindered by antags.

Honestly, if you don't see this as a win-win for everyone then you want the game to be something different than what MSE intended.

[Whitebleidd]

Like I said giving pvp additional rewards is something that although I consider silly, I would not mind, so long as actual content is still available to all, as for the mythical vision that for some reason players seem to take to heart nowadays on so many games... well I’m not an MS dev, can’t say the original vision is high up on the list of things I’m worried about, I’m concerned with having fun, being entertained, that’s what all this is for after all…

I also consider the pvp in this game to be amongst the worst, if not the worst ive ever encountered, which is funny because of how it contrasts with its excellent pve, but anyways, considering your idea seems to be giving more gold/fp im inclined to agree, should appease pvp ppl.