[Glenn777]

I get your point.

What I was getting at is I think there should be more info in-game on what an Antagonist is and how they work, as alot of players may never even try to play as one and won't understand what they can really do. 

At the core though I think it may also be that we don't have much communication yet beyond basic emotes, so it can be hard to show people where to go or let them know the Antagonist is behind us. We'll see.

Either way I love the Antagonist concept.

Sorry then, I misunderstood the thread. Yes, I agree with you. At least, I see the antagonist mode more for experienced players and the only end-game. No rewards, tablescore, token reward from tablescore. Harder role for newcomers.

I never though about that because I tried the game knowing what each game mode was, but yes, there need to be more info in game about each mode.

Defending lycus, and killing engineers, while keeping yourself and your team alive. This describes a rescue mission in my opinion. Learning the three basic CQC button mechanics shouldn't be that hard if they read the guide and fight Ali. Without these, you will die, lycus will die, and the mission is failed. So Why is a rescue mission to much to comprehend?  Like the raiders the antagonist has a job to do as well. Stopping you and your team from progressing. So working together to put the antagonist at a disadvantage by ganking, flanking, or even leading him to another player by running away is an advantage you have against him/ her. The antagonist will know where you are at all times but he/she can't fight two players at once. And in my experience the map is fine the way it is. it has two levels with ample room and quite a few ways to alternate between floors. So why should a novice have environmental advantages over the antagonist because the antagonist has more experience? Why can't the casual player stay long enough to play a different mission? How would a larger map with bigger and more abundant cover help the novice? How would this fit into the setting of the mission?

let me rephrase my question about yuselessend. What good video games are casual oriented? Or what games will he play that interests him? Also, why would a casual worry about killing minions when minions are not the objective unless they are out of ammo? Why does the novice not know what to do when the pilot explains the situation? Is playing as a group or grouping up not defense? What points from above? I was not asking for games similar to raiders.(sorry if this reads off as rude. That was not my intention.)

Although I do agree with you, we need more people playing and more game modes. But in my opinion, a practice mode will be useless. Why practice on an AI dummy if regular AI and players are far less predictable? And what will keep a casual player playing if he/she barely plays videogames anyway?

And to make Sure I'm not misleading. I am a beta player, nothing more. I am not a dev nor a creator.

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I don't want to keep discussing about something that was not the goal of this thread. So, I will try to be short.

Yes, it's a rescue mission.

I am not trying to vilify anyone Neither the pros nor the antagonist.

The only thing that I said is that from my point of view, it's not a good idea to throw a new player for the first game into that mission in that map and against an antagonist. That is all.

OK.

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[Glenn777]

I get your point.

What I was getting at is I think there should be more info in-game on what an Antagonist is and how they work, as alot of players may never even try to play as one and won't understand what they can really do. 

At the core though I think it may also be that we don't have much communication yet beyond basic emotes, so it can be hard to show people where to go or let them know the Antagonist is behind us. We'll see.

Either way I love the Antagonist concept.

Sorry then, I misunderstood the thread. Yes, I agree with you. At least, I see the antagonist mode more for experienced players and the only end-game. No rewards, tablescore, token reward from tablescore. Harder role for newcomers.

I never though about that because I tried the game knowing what each game mode was, but yes, there need to be more info in game about each mode.

Defending lycus, and killing engineers, while keeping yourself and your team alive. This describes a rescue mission in my opinion. Learning the three basic CQC button mechanics shouldn't be that hard if they read the guide and fight Ali. Without these, you will die, lycus will die, and the mission is failed. So Why is a rescue mission to much to comprehend?  Like the raiders the antagonist has a job to do as well. Stopping you and your team from progressing. So working together to put the antagonist at a disadvantage by ganking, flanking, or even leading him to another player by running away is an advantage you have against him/ her. The antagonist will know where you are at all times but he/she can't fight two players at once. And in my experience the map is fine the way it is. it has two levels with ample room and quite a few ways to alternate between floors. So why should a novice have environmental advantages over the antagonist because the antagonist has more experience? Why can't the casual player stay long enough to play a different mission? How would a larger map with bigger and more abundant cover help the novice? How would this fit into the setting of the mission?

let me rephrase my question about yuselessend. What good video games are casual oriented? Or what games will he play that interests him? Also, why would a casual worry about killing minions when minions are not the objective unless they are out of ammo? Why does the novice not know what to do when the pilot explains the situation? Is playing as a group or grouping up not defense? What points from above? I was not asking for games similar to raiders.(sorry if this reads off as rude. That was not my intention.)

Although I do agree with you, we need more people playing and more game modes. But in my opinion, a practice mode will be useless. Why practice on an AI dummy if regular AI and players are far less predictable? And what will keep a casual player playing if he/she barely plays videogames anyway?

And to make Sure I'm not misleading. I am a beta player, nothing more. I am not a dev nor a creator.

Sent from my U673C using Tapatalk

I don't want to keep discussing about something that was not the goal of this thread. So, I will try to be short.

Yes, it's a rescue mission.

I am not trying to vilify anyone Neither the pros nor the antagonist.

The only thing that I said is that from my point of view, it's not a good idea to throw a new player for the first game into that mission in that map and against an antagonist. That is all.

*OK. Here is my final thought as well. The discussion was relevant because your points did not make any sense to me. So I asked you to elaborate so I can understand your opinion. Because to me, your POV is flawed. New players are certainly not thrown anywhere. The real first mission is a solo tutorial that informs you on how a few mechanics work in the game. This is the mission I believe can use some work. Its short, doesn't  go into detail about gameplay and character skills, and its boring.  Rescuing lycus is the second mission. So in my opinion, rescuing a dangerous person like lycus from a heavily armed transport ship, gives this rescue mission some form of a reason to be the way it is. And if a new player is constantly loosing to the second mission, ether because a skilled player is playing against them on an online match or because they can't adapt to small areas, this is not the only mission available for a new players to play in COOP. The third mission has exactly what your asking for so maybe your casual friend should try that next time. So, Unless your meaning is a proposal to give this first mission some improvements, I don't agree. Do you understand?

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[Ebisu_rkz]

*OK. Here is my final thought as well. The discussion was relevant because your points did not make any sense to me. So I asked you to elaborate so I can understand your opinion. Because to me, your POV is flawed. New players are certainly not thrown anywhere. The real first mission is a solo tutorial that informs you on how a few mechanics work in the game. This is the mission I believe can use some work. Its short, doesn't  go into detail about gameplay and character skills, and its boring.  Rescuing lycus is the second mission. So in my opinion, rescuing a dangerous person like lycus from a heavily armed transport ship, gives this rescue mission some form of a reason to be the way it is. And if a new player is constantly loosing to the second mission, ether because a skilled player is playing against them on an online match or because they can't adapt to small areas, this is not the only mission available for a new players to play in COOP. The third mission has exactly what your asking for so maybe your casual friend should try that next time. So, Unless your meaning is a proposal to give this first mission some improvements, I don't agree. Do you understand?

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I agree with that, that is why I have that opinion. The first mission (real tutorial) should go more in detail about some mechanics and longer in my opinion.

Yes, I think the second mission it's easier for a new player if he is matched against an antagonist, but I think most players will start with the first mission (tutorial and lycus) because it's named "prologue".

My problem was more pointed towards new players like my friend that are more casual players, but that they don't know anyone in the game. In the case of my friend I can tell him how the game works obvioulsy, he shouldn't have that problem.

BTW, I wasn't asking for a complete redone of the mission or advantages for the raiders, I understand that there is a narrative behind that mission, and that mission is not bad at all. I was simply exposing a possible problem, and there are a lot of different ways to fix that as expanding the tutorial like you said or simply don't letting a player match against an antagonist for their first multiplayer game.

[Glenn777]

*OK. Here is my final thought as well. The discussion was relevant because your points did not make any sense to me. So I asked you to elaborate so I can understand your opinion. Because to me, your POV is flawed. New players are certainly not thrown anywhere. The real first mission is a solo tutorial that informs you on how a few mechanics work in the game. This is the mission I believe can use some work. Its short, doesn't  go into detail about gameplay and character skills, and its boring.  Rescuing lycus is the second mission. So in my opinion, rescuing a dangerous person like lycus from a heavily armed transport ship, gives this rescue mission some form of a reason to be the way it is. And if a new player is constantly loosing to the second mission, ether because a skilled player is playing against them on an online match or because they can't adapt to small areas, this is not the only mission available for a new players to play in COOP. The third mission has exactly what your asking for so maybe your casual friend should try that next time. So, Unless your meaning is a proposal to give this first mission some improvements, I don't agree. Do you understand?

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I agree with that, that is why I have that opinion. The first mission (real tutorial) should go more in detail about some mechanics and longer in my opinion.

Yes, I think the second mission it's easier for a new player if he is matched against an antagonist, but I think most players will start with the first mission (tutorial and lycus) because it's named "prologue".

My problem was more pointed towards new players like my friend that are more casual players, but that they don't know anyone in the game. In the case of my friend I can tell him how the game works obvioulsy, he shouldn't have that problem.

BTW, I wasn't asking for a complete redone of the mission or advantages for the raiders, I understand that there is a narrative behind that mission, and that mission is not bad at all. I was simply exposing a possible problem, and there are a lot of different ways to fix that as expanding the tutorial like you said or simply don't letting a player match against an antagonist for their first multiplayer game.

"Dont letting a player match against an antagonist for their first game." This is what I mean by vilifying the antagonist. I'm not saying you are the one doing it, I'm saying that will render the antagonist mode unplayable there for vilifying or, for a better representation, throwing a big sign at there feet saying "no antagonists allowed because a noobie is not ready for you". This doesn't seem fair to me. Plus, I don't know if you experience this but, its a long process to connect to a match as both raider and antagonist, so imagine trying to find a game without a new player when there are more new players every beta session. It feel unplayable and cringe worthy in my opinion. This is my question for your personal opinion, if the tutorial mode were fixed to present every aspect of the game like it should have done, would you still think new players need a friend or protection from antagonists? This is an honest question.


BTW, you might have not need the run down but all of it wasn't for you. we might not be the only people reading our conversations. I like to be sure we are all on the same page. Also, understand I am not trying to argue with your beliefs. To me, you seem like a person that actually gives a damn for those who are having a hard time. You have my respect for this. But understand this as my personal experience, new players will be fine if they have Patience and perseverance. (And a better tutorial.)

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