[ShadowofDoubts]

Many people complain about this invader system (that's what I'm calling it). My complaint is how easy it is to punish and there is virtually nothing you can do about it. The way to always beat the system, well almost always, is to simply stay with your teammates and you have won. This is unless the level has elites like the ones in the sargon mine or hanging by a thread, in this case the antagonist has a greater edge. Anything short of this and the antagonist cant stop your mission and rarely kill you in the process. Hell, in a 1 v 2 and they lose no matter who they play or what they do so a head-on fight is just plain impractical. This makes lycus and Alicia weak picks in that regards, no matter the map. Long range raiders them such as Shae, Harec, and in some capacity Konstantin have better sustain so long as they keep their distance, but this prevents them from stopping the mission as long as the other team takes cover. They try anything else and they will die. Hans gets a pass because he can get in and out with good damage and range to sustain him. However he still cant take on a team that sticks together. Mikah suffers from all of this too. This is only taking into account that they are reasonably close to each other, no strategy or coordination required. If a team does this then the antagonist game is virtually lost before it really even started. This means that the invading system is only good for dealing with uncoordinated teams that like to scatter across the map. The conclusion is that being the antagonist is only really good in some games and not so much in others which makes the mode inconsistent in how it feels. This makes being the invader an unfun experience when you can only face a team that is disorganized with a good chance of success while playing with people that have the sense to stay together makes it near impossible to win. This inconsistency is what makes the invader system unfun, it's not game mechanics which are fine, but the fundamentals of the game and the invader system.
My proposal create an antagonist exclusive system that gives the invader an edge that won't break the game into a million pieces such as; antagonist exclusive cards or abilities. Would like to hear thoughts and opinions. something constructive would be nice.

[ButterPoached]

I have to say, this was not what I was expecting when I clicked the thread title. Every post about the Antagonist so far has been made by someone who has been back grappled 78 times by one and needs to cry about it on the forums.

The issue that I see is that if the Antagonist gets better stats, all of a sudden facing off against one head on becomes a losing proposition. I really like the rush of dueling someone, and I'm not sure I would appreciate it if they got cheat mode.

I also rarely see Antagonists working with the AI opponents or interacting with mission objectives, they are mostly Lycus players who run around trying to back grapple people. Regular grunts in this game absorb a TON of damage and deal out a surprising amount, attacking in concert with a troop transport should surely be able to rattle a 4-stacked team, even a little.

In the end, I think the Antagonist should only win maybe 25% of the games, considering that a failed mission flushes any hope of a rare reward down the toilet for 4 players. I get that it makes playing the Antagonist not very rewarding, but Antagonist mode is already the mode that doesn't have rewards attached to it.

[ShadowofDoubts]

concerns noted. All I want is for the mode to be fairer for both sides without it being one-sided favoritism for the raider or antagonist. A good ability would be for the antagonist to call for aid from nearby mobs or they can use aleph to provide an edge such as timed buffs or hell, being able to give aleph to elite enemies on their side. These small things don't overtly make the antagonist better seeing as they need to be able to make good decisions, but it hopefully spices the game up while keeping it fair.
Any of the proposals above should be scaled to an optimal degree, you can be summoning the entire map to help you, that would be ludicrous. The suggestions are just a utilization of your feedback and I appreciate it.

[ButterPoached]

concerns noted. All I want is for the mode to be fairer for both sides without it being one-sided favoritism for the raider or antagonist. A good ability would be for the antagonist to call for aid from nearby mobs or they can use aleph to provide an edge such as timed buffs or hell, being able to give aleph to elite enemies on their side. These small things don't overtly make the antagonist better seeing as they need to be able to make good decisions, but it hopefully spices the game up while keeping it fair.
Any of the proposals above should be scaled to an optimal degree, you can be summoning the entire map to help you, that would be ludicrous. The suggestions are just a utilization of your feedback and I appreciate it.

Actually, I really like that idea! The game already has an emote system, and if the Antagonist could use it to direct goons on the map, it would make being the Antagonist more rewarding AND use some buttons that currently have no purpose for them. Good idea!

[Ebisu_rkz]

concerns noted. All I want is for the mode to be fairer for both sides without it being one-sided favoritism for the raider or antagonist. A good ability would be for the antagonist to call for aid from nearby mobs or they can use aleph to provide an edge such as timed buffs or hell, being able to give aleph to elite enemies on their side. These small things don't overtly make the antagonist better seeing as they need to be able to make good decisions, but it hopefully spices the game up while keeping it fair.
Any of the proposals above should be scaled to an optimal degree, you can be summoning the entire map to help you, that would be ludicrous. The suggestions are just a utilization of your feedback and I appreciate it.

Actually, I really like that idea! The game already has an emote system, and if the Antagonist could use it to direct goons on the map, it would make being the Antagonist more rewarding AND use some buttons that currently have no purpose for them. Good idea!

I would like to see that, the antagonist would have more options and the people would get more used to use the warning signals, which make the game more fun.

It would need to be some restriction on some degree so you cant pull all NPC with you, but it would be a nice and different feature imo.

[Jojoe 126]

Alicia isn't viable?. Are you serious?. She's the best well rounded character in the game. Therefore if anything she is the best choice to play as an antagonist. As an antagonist you have to adapt differently depending on how they play as a team. If they are huddled together, their speed of progression is slower but their defence is stronger. You don't just rely on melee because that's too rng when everyone is capable all around. Snipers won't hack it because they have no pressure. Alicia is literally god in these scenarios as she is able to apply constant pressure and be agile at the same time, just use poke tactics.

Poke tactic is where the money is at for huddlers and straglers. You maximise evasivness and pressure by sticking to this. If people huddle when you are Alicia, they are just simply cornered for your to make use of Alicia weapon spread.

The way you been trying to fight the enemy is where you have been going wrong. Antagonist is balanced enough already. The only thing I will say is that once people start getting the light pulse for Shae, the antagonist role will be harder to play being as it is so easy to get a lock and instantly make characters limp. But that's a matter of weapon changes instead. That gun makes the smoking daisy look like a pea shooter.

[Quanrian]

I don't mind the Antagonist being able to let's say 'aggro' a particularly good Raider with enemy NPCs with perhaps a 'mark' mechanic. Forcing a group of Raiders to actually work together or at least as two man teams is how you effectively do any 4 vs 1 because your back can be covered as games like Army of Two heavily showcased. As it stands an Antagonist really needs to 'sync' their activity with what NPCs are doing as well as keep firmly in mind what players need to accomplish to progress. Thus, anything that can make the Antagonist better control NPCs even if it's just an aggro focus gives them a greater ability to control the flow on their end. In that way, they are more like a commander than just a simple assassin.

[ShadowofDoubts]

This is why I created this thread. I just want a more diverse antagonist system that has more tools that can allow you to alter the flow of battle if you have the skill for it, without making it one-sided as stated above. The ability to direct some NPC's would allow actual strategy and teamwork while giving antagonist players a better chance at winning, but making it through skill and not through cheap stat buffs and the like.
In regards to Alicia's viability, she doesn't make a good antagonist simply because her stress is always maxed. This allows the raiders to see her coming from anywhere and react accordingly; if they stay together and watch her movements, she is at a huge disadvantage. Also, the effective range of her shotguns and the damage drop off put her in range to where if she tries spraying them, the raiders will do the same. She can handle 1v1, but anything more and she will fail. Because she is a wardog is the reason she isn't a very good antagonist against a grouped team, which is the point of this thread.

[savagehulk01]

The fact that's it's only me vs there hole team the computer is no help what do ever I killed there team 38 time and still got punished I got negative points that's bullcrap and it's not fair they have unlimited lives as well if u our Going to give them m united lives then give is more people on antagonist side a teammate would be nice please other them that I love this game my global rank is 1704

[DAXIMA]

The antagonist mode does definitely feel like the antagonist is disadvantaged and it should, however I think that right now if the team of Raiders has any idea of what they're doing then an antagonist can almost never win. Maybe they could toy around with making antagonist mode 4v2? This way the antagonist doesn't have to rely on the Ai enemies to back them up.

[ShadowofDoubts]

4v2 will always be better, but if it turns out to be too much of a balance breaker then AI control is a good mechanic should all else not work out. Experimenting with both concepts is something I hope the devs will take into consideration for the sake of the game.

[Jojoe 126]

You say that and yet every person who reaches champion is an Alicia, myself included. Lost one game as antagonist and that was because I felt like playing Shae and chill. The fact that you say how Alicia isn't viable already shows your main issue with not reaching a good win streak. Ask any champion rank player besides me and they will tell you the same.

It's more one sided saying you think it's too hard simply because you most likely don't know how to approach as an antagonist. Even though plenty of people and myself reach top rank and 100 - 200+ points with barley ever losing, the proof is on the league, that isn't one sided.. ive had champion achieved with ease on all 3 seasons so far to the point where i get bored playing antagonist after going over 100 points every week . You can say what you want but again it's all about the poking capability. Good luck trying to take down an Alicia with ease when they constantly poke with quick health regen and no practical way to chase aside from a hans or alicia. But hey, there goes the huddle and into your territory. I do it all time vs all kinds of scenarios, it's plenty effective. Maybe you should actually discipline yourself to at least try instead of the impractical conclusion that it can't be done when all champions pretty much use similar tactics. You should be constantly air borne with little ground time.

You think stress meter makes a difference when you constantly on the push?. Have you ever tried to effectively shoot down an Alicia doing air borne pokes?. She rips health down quick enough and recovers fast enough. You don't need to over commit when the npcs start stacking while they too busy trying to shoot you down and chase.  And that's not even including when you get smoking daisy. Lots of spread and one shot limps snipers and clip puts down the rest apart from a mikha.

Huddled players won't progress fast enough so at thst point it just becomes a matter of stalling and keeping a balanced range during float so you don't get jumped and during that time, the npcs stack and apply more pressure, which is where your poking will start becoming more and more fatal. And they will be no closer or slowly progressing at best. You clearly don't know how effective poke is with Alicia simply because you either aren't good enough in general or you aren't patient enough to not get tempted for a quick kill. Either way it's bad. Try to pursue an Alicia with explosive clip drop and npcs is just suicide on top of that.

There's plenty of people achieving top ranks simply because they have earned it by being good enough for it. Don't believe me? Check the league every week and see for yourself. You dont see us struggling. Why people want to make it unnecessarily easier just defeats the purpose of earning these ranks in the first place.

The only time it will start getting difficult will be when many people begin to obtain the light pulse, which WILL ruin an antagonist often. So you think it's hard now?. Good luck when that day comes my friend.

[ShadowofDoubts]

I see your point as much as it vexes me. I play Alicia primarily and I see merit in what you say.  The Sargon mines is an area that amplifies on this concept of stalling and allowing the npcs to stack and crush the raiders, especially in the second half. I guess what it comes down to is the raider composition and what steps need to be taken to counter them.
Her ability to be seen no matter where she is on the map is still a disadvantage I still need the understanding to overcome. You can't ambush the opponents, but they can do it to you. I have tried the stay in the air tactic, but teams that know what to do can easily just slaughter you regardless of what you try.  I think you are right in her viability and I'm just coming across some teams that really know how to counter antagonist in general. A team that knows how to hunt antagonist is not something that simple to overcome since I do this all the time.
In regard to patients, how do you do that when the enemy can alway see you and in many cases do what I do and crush them when they are susceptible? Really, lets agree that a lot of circumstances that determine how you will do with her depends on the map. An example I come across is the Kuzzman boss battle where the arena is low ground, wide open areas, and not much that allow your wall jump ability to be utilized to the max. You could say to have Kuzzman help, but I have found him unreliable against a team that takes cover often and aggros the boss wherever they please.
To summarize I agree that there is the fault on my part for how I see antagonist mode, but I would still like to see mechanics that can make the mode more interesting and allow different approaches to the game. Say you could direct troops, but the raiders could team-based abilities that they can activate with aleph. Instead of accepting the system as is, why not give it more flexibility to keep it interesting. Thanks for the feedback Jojoe, it stuff like this that can help things improve. Still vexing though.

[Jojoe 126]

I go against at least a good team every day dude. I went against a bunch last night in fact on the prologue and first map of DLC. It doesn't matter what they do to make sure an antagonist can't do much. They can't stop a poke unless you get unlucky. I can guarantee you the higher ranks have more likely had more matches than the rest vs organised teams. The beginning of every game is about assessing each player and their habits individually and taking advantage. I've been against these organised teams,  stages such as kuz are more in the teams favor. But it's still not really difficult to take advantage of people hiding with explosive clips and a clip drop. Assuming they don't get hurt, they still have to move and risk taking a debuff. Which allows you to capitalise on kills from either them, a separated target or the teamate who is cornered due to a rebuffed teammate relocating close by.

Under the appropriate pressure, every refined player will mess up and leave an opening for either themselves or the isolated teammate due to the herding. First map of DLC is always a pain vs a good team regardless so that kinda isn't much of a case to buff an antagonist.

I'm not saying you can't risk losing because that would be obviously incorrect. But from experience, your win to loss is certainly going to be better if you play correctly. You won't go through those type of fights most of the time.

[PersonMcHuman]

Despite you thinking that you're the best antagonist ever, Jojoe 126, Antagonist mode is still severely unfair, no matter how good it is you think you are. I've been playing since the beta, and I've only lost against the Antagonist twice, and those two times were just my first times playing. Everything you just said can be countered simply by going up against a team that doesn't run off alone (to be picked off) or stay literally right next to one another (to have explosives dropped on them. Just spent the last 30 minutes on a single mission as the Antagonist playing as Alicia, and it took that long specifically because of the reasons I stated. Only won because the host's connection went bad towards the end, and everyone started teleporting all over the place and getting grabbed by elites (and your advice, which can basically be boiled down to "Git Gud and Poke", would not have helped). And let me tell you, the fact that Antagonists get literally nothing if they lose (but the Raiders do) is a serious problem. Would have made that entirely battle completely pointless and a waste of time.