[Placelord]

It's pretty hard to make a convincing case for this while so many low-med lv raiders are getting put out by high lv antags. It's a real shaky situation and I don't envy the devs tasked with fixing it. I just hope they take the easy route and make it optional on a per match basis. Yeah that'll make it so antags only run into well prepped squads but it will open them up to increasing the ad spawn rate without fear of smashing newbies.

[XjabberwockieX]

The craziest thing to me after watching the marmalade melting video in 8 seconds is that I have NEVER seen anything like that when my team gets an antagonist. Even the same antagonist from the video (Mr.Senpai) When he or ANY OTHER Antag gets us, they get help, PLENTY of help. When we win (not always, but usually) It is because we are better as a team and familiar with the tactics needed to win the match. On average we are around 65-75 mmr at any given time.
  I believe Draco when he says Antagging is dead but somethings gotta give because in my experience as a lifetime raider as opposed to lifetime antagonist, these levels do give the antagonists alot of help. Its gotta be with the mmr rating. Too many low mmr players running around getting top tier antagonists and the map just fails antag completely.
 Any antag that wants to have a good fight, XjabberwockieX is my psn, I want to invite you to friend me, allow me to set up a match with you and my guild and I can prove to you, the maps give help, lots of it. I really enjoy improving against the best the antag world has to offer, and ya'll deserve some backup too. See u guys out there.

[LordDraco3]

The continued popularity of peaceful antags are definitely a symptom of this, in my opinion. If the mode does not feel rewarding or even possible, many players won't put in the effort.

And yeah Jab, it's likely your MMR. At 70+ I just always get the same 10 players in a constant loop, when I don't have a 30 minute queue, and I get kinda tired of that. Players at that level are too few. I go down to 50-60% and there's nothing for raiders to even do if an antag comes into the game, besides dogpile the antag, because there's no mission pressing against them to impede their progress. Personal MMR affecting who I can queue against is quite an annoying hurdle.
Options are:
Stay low and fight low level teams, or high levels that drop MMR artificially
Stay high and get long queues and always fight the same teams every match

I stand by that before the guild update, antagging felt fine at any MMR. There were still problem maps, but those maps are worse now. The sweeping changes that nerfed antagonists are very noticeable.

[Quanrian]

I could read through everyone's posts but honestly will just end up agreeing most with Draco at this point. The worst part about where we're at now is the hope it will change drastically... in maybe 6 months or more because it's slated as the 'last' change on the roadmap. I keep saying and will keep saying... more modes, more variety in how we play. Even if this means just letting us set up private matches with no reward but also no wait times. With games like Breach coming out and showing 'exactly' what an evil entity fighting the powers of good could look like...

Antagonist just gets staler and more trite and it's something I still go back to despite its many flaws because being a Raider is still boring. This is aside from the fact after your half to hour wait you're likely to pull high ping matches because p2p is extremely unkind to this mode in particular. I wont even discuss MMR because generally speaking I think it's stupid, pointless crap that needs to be replaced by basic difficulties (that ANYONE can understand) yesterday and its existence adds nothing but confusion in my humble opinion. In the end, unless you hate Antagonist mode it is probably what you will end up playing because nothing else feels right after a thousand-ish hours of play and you will suffer!

[Uh, ok.]

I could read through everyone's posts but honestly will just end up agreeing most with Draco at this point.

very insightful and respectful to everyone involved

after going through a couple more antagonist matches today while counting my ai support i don't think i even got to 50 before one match was over also there is something very..insulting in the way elites are still totally braindead gibbons when I know for a fact that was a chief complaint 4-5 months ago

Antagonist still has its moments of fun and in those moments I am able to perceive a continuum of similar moments just out of reach because of the shortcomings which have recently been added to this mode and problems which have yet to be addressed after almost a year

I keep saying and will keep saying... more modes, more variety in how we play.

no, dude, that is absolutely the last thing they need. you have to build a solid foundation before you start adding on all the nooks and crannies and there are still some massively broken fundamental problems with the AI and the way difficulty is decided

Antagonist just gets staler and more trite and it's something I still go back to despite its many flaws because being a Raider is still boring...
 
...in the end, unless you hate Antagonist mode it is probably what you will end up playing because nothing else feels right after a thousand-ish hours of play and you will suffer!

just because one person has played the game for 1000 hours doesn't mean it is boring to everyone, get over yourself, get over this small achievement, because the game is being designed for people who will never reach 100 hours. those people will get bored much more quickly and many will probably not even make it to level 100. asking for changes to the game that the majority haven't even fully explored yet because your bored shows a level of self-preoccupation borderlining on narcissistic.

also, lorddraco's point, if I may be so bold, was not that playing this game for too long makes him bored. in fact, it is the opposite, it makes him incensed at the changes made to a game mode he has played quite a bit. it seems you do not agree with lorddraco and in all probability didn't even read HIS post.

these changes to the antagonist mode are definitely much more targeted at the lower level demographic over any other, because it makes it harder for the antagonist and easier for the raiders.

[Placelord]

Woah. Let's not throw the baby out. The mode is still savlageable, we just need the difficulty algorithm to take better account of circumstances.

Now as for new modes, I am of two minds. One mind wants the basics polished before moving on to new features(ie ppl dodging grabs and grabbing through punches needs addressed before anything else). The other mind wants a vs mode and a legit training mode, mainly because my friendly antag experience opened my eyes to new forms of play.

When I friendly with a good squad, I can sit off to the side and train. Because of this room to breath, I've learned to do things with characters that has bumped up my skill significantly. Also since I'm on mic with my raiders I can challenge for 1 v 1 matches without getting dogpiled when it starts getting fun.

As a preemptive response; the current practice mode is not a practical training environment. First off you have to win 5 times. If you've already played the stage enough to earn it, you don't need to practice it. The people who need the practice are people who don't yet have a feel for it, or thier character. Secondly, because you are solo vs all the ai; you are likely get railroaded into a particular character/load out/playstyle. It'd be more accurate to call it challenge mode.

[Whitebleidd]

So basically since they don’t want to make it optional, they are at least balancing it so it’s less annoying on the player base, well it’s a compromise, so it’s something, good on you MS I can see where you’re coming from, that said there’s still way to many missions that are easily cheesed by antags, Short Fused, Media Res, Mind over Matter, to name a few. Short Fused is especially frustrating with antag, now that we have to make so many trips a single bomb lost to antag shenanigans is way to annoying, they have all the advantage in said mission if they go with a sniper, sooo maybe don’t allow them to pick up bombs? Idk…

And as for the bottom line of this thread, it is incorrect, don’t believe it for a second MS, I get plenty of antags every day, the mode is in no way dead, and a patch to over tune it for antags would be very bad for the already shaky player numbers.

[Placelord]

Hold up. I see a lot about recent changes effecting antagging since the last update. I didn't get a look at the most recent patchnotes, but is this an inference based on experience or was there actual documented nerfing? I am curious now.

[Uh, ok.]

Hold up. I see a lot about recent changes effecting antagging since the last update. I didn't get a look at the most recent patchnotes, but is this an inference based on experience or was there actual documented nerfing? I am curious now.

got ya boo
https://spacelordsthegame.com/news/spacelords-update-12-patch-notes

ctrl + f
search "against an Antagonist"
or "decreased" as they are essentially the same

[LordDraco3]

Oh shit it's Quan!
I think you may be misinterpreting him "uh, ok" I've known Quan for a while and caught some of his stream commentary here and there, and your challenges towards his post seem like misunderstandings to me. I do believe we have the same opinions on antag as a whole, just articulating it in different ways. I do play mostly antag because I find it more fun than raider.

After playing raider for ages, it does just get boring. Though even back when I was still new to the game, I still set aside time to play several matches per week even when it gave no rewards at all. It's always been my favored way to play, no matter how much time i spend as raider.

there’s still way to many missions that are easily cheesed by antags, Short Fused, Media Res, Mind over Matter, to name a few. Short Fused is especially frustrating with antag, now that we have to make so many trips a single bomb lost to antag shenanigans is way to annoying, they have all the advantage in said mission if they go with a sniper, sooo maybe don’t allow them to pick up bombs? Idk…

Funny you mention that, I think I did say it's not even fun to win many times because it often requires cheesing to deal with the imbalance. But last night, I played 3 games: short fuse, MOMx2

On short fuse, I watched Lycus walk the bomb up to a tank with seconds left, it blew up in his arms. Hit him and Rak, they were both wounded, the bombs didn't even kill them. My MMR and the Raider MMR was in low 60's, and the bomb can't even kill the raiders in their face. There is NO supporting AI help on this map, but yes, I still find it fairly reliable to cheese by purposely killing and targeting the bombs more than the raiders. Sorry but that is the only option at this current time. After making it to part 2, barely, they easily won due to how stupid the AI is, they are free aleph, as stated by the quote:


I then played MOM x2, lost both. 51 kills over 25 mins, 43% MMR vs my 60%, 400 ping (they were all high lvl players at this low of MMR).
Then I fought Jab with close 60 MMR and did worse. Both games were basically barren of shit to deal with, no ads, especially on the first match, which barely even had miners due to MMR difference. The boss is extremely weak and even if I am killing raiders, they just kill the boss as easily as walking through a door.

And as for the bottom line of this thread, it is incorrect, don’t believe it for a second MS, I get plenty of antags every day, the mode is in no way dead, and a patch to over tune it for antags would be very bad for the already shaky player numbers.

Do they all actually fight? Because when I raid, actual fighting antags are a rarity.

got ya boo
https://spacelordsthegame.com/news/spacelords-update-12-patch-notes

ctrl + f
search "against an Antagonist"
or "decreased" as they are essentially the same

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS

[LordDraco3]

anyways devs teased a bit in discord today and it leaves me very hopeful. Nothing revealed just yet, but at least antags are not forgotten and will hopefully be pulled out of our current purgatory "soon"

There is been some somewhat drastic tweaking being done regarding Antagomatches
Besides the Aurora Thingies thing
I'm not sure I can [explain], since it's not due for the imminent patch release, but after
But before the Aurora, for sure
Huey not extracting has been adreessed
When I said "drastic tweaking" I was refering to some stuff affecting the match's outcome
I know there's being a lot of changes made into matchmaking, but it's such a complex and confusing matter to me
I'm sure we'll have to re-retweak after some of those retweaks
I mean, one of the most notable stuff is a really simple thing
But I'm not sure I should speak about it just yet
But it's a really visible thing you may guess or have thought about, that would make like easier for Antags
It's not some invisible value thing

And it sounds like something better than just "buff spawn rate, buff enemies, etc" since it's not just a value adjustment. Not gonna come this upcoming patch, but soon 

[Uh, ok.]

you know whats crazy? they said the exact same stuff about guilds

mse: "oh this thing is so wild, it really is quite the thing but i can't tell you because it would ruin the surprise"
me: "oh my, it must be quite the thing I can't wait"
mse: "yes, well i would tell you but it is a very great and secret thing"
me: "well, i'll just wait for the guild update"
*guild update*
me: "can't wait for that great and secret thing!"
mse: "this is it, well not all of it, we didnt finish it in time but check out all the layers for emblems and the chatbox, pretty swank huh?"
me: "yeah..what about the flags?"
mse: "you didn't see them on the intro screen?"
me: "oh so thats that then"
mse: "listen, man, we can't be arsed to give you all the things you expect to get from our teasers and hyping, so just be fine with that for now because guess what! we are working on another great and secret thing"
me: "i don't know if i should trust you anymore"

[Whatever]

I created an account here, before reading the above, to speak about exactly that. I'm glad that it's not just me. I don't love Antaging but it's something I have to do in order to get more experience. Ok. So far so ok. It's part of the game and I get that.

But Jesus. It's a buffet out there. The raiders are eating me alive. I'm in the late 200's so not totally horrendous at the game. Example: my MMR 40, Raiders skill was 41 on MOM with a lvl 18 in tow.  Another example. HBaT. There were two ads and they were walking away from the raiders. What? Really?

Not one of them died via the enemies or boss. Not one. I died continuously and repeatedly. 

They did the level in 8 minutes. 8. Would anyone who has played this game before think that's normal?

It's just not even remotely fun. Like at all. This is the worst part. I don't play this game to get annoyed or angry, I play it for fun and that's what isn't there any more as an antag. It's a chore. Chores are not fun.

There is not any incentive to play antag other than friendly or just waiting it out which is a shame and that's what I'll have to do...

[LordDraco3]

I created an account here, before reading the above, to speak about exactly that. I'm glad that it's not just me. I don't love Antaging but it's something I have to do in order to get more experience. Ok. So far so ok. It's part of the game and I get that.

But Jesus. It's a buffet out there. The raiders are eating me alive. I'm in the late 200's so not totally horrendous at the game. Example: my MMR 40, Raiders skill was 41 on MOM with a lvl 18 in tow.  Another example. HBaT. There were two ads and they were walking away from the raiders. What? Really?

Not one of them died via the enemies or boss. Not one. I died continuously and repeatedly. 

They did the level in 8 minutes. 8. Would anyone who has played this game before think that's normal?

It's just not even remotely fun. Like at all. This is the worst part. I don't play this game to get annoyed or angry, I play it for fun and that's what isn't there any more as an antag. It's a chore. Chores are not fun.

There is not any incentive to play antag other than friendly or just waiting it out which is a shame and that's what I'll have to do...

It really didn't used to be this bad That's why I made this thread, I've played for over a year, and even when i was a brand new baby to the game, I felt more viable as an antag than I do now. Just 2 months ago, I got so many 10.0 matches that I stopped recording all of them. I still lost, but the nerfs to antag have been so overblown that it's worse than I've ever seen it.

One recent game I had vs. a streamer and all players from discord, was on Upside Down. It was the single worst match I have ever played. I always fight tooth and nail even when i'm outmatched, but this one, I literally gave up and stopped spawning.

I picked Sassy Alicia, probably my most viable choice right now due to speed and damage. They were Rak, Mikah, Schneider....and Shae, with Light Pulse. Every moment I spawned, Shae would 1-shot me no matter where I was if I even thought about jumping. If I didn't jump, then all 4 raiders would just dogpile me. Shae stood in the dead center of my 2 closest spawn points. Upside down's antag spawns cover a half-circle of the round arena, and Raiders spawn in the middle of the other side of that circle. I had no chance of reaching her from any of my spawn locations, and even though they had more MMR than me, absolutely nothing on the map, AI-wise, was hurting or downing Shae.

Without her, I would have stood a chance and I have confidence in my ability to win. But being 1-shot from anywhere on the map, or being forced to not jump and fight 3 raiders at once, was completely impossible. All thanks to the spawn points, and a 1-shot auto-lock character standing where I couldn't reach her without eating that 1-shot attack while they bewitched me...

Antag spawn POINTS just need to be removed entirely. Too many maps have easy to camp locations, or easy for raiders to just hole up. Spawning should work like Doldren's spirit form.
Change my mind (you won't).

[Placelord]

I gotta admit I feel really bad adding to the raging fire. I just want to try and be positive and thank the devs for addressing almost every thread on the front page since they got back from vacation.

And say that this vitriol is coming from a place of love. We have very high expectations because this shit is bangin. But the reality is that those expectations clash with what is possible. We all feel that one simple tweak is going to fix everything. That the tweak is so simple and direct that them not implementing it is a sign of incompetence or stubborness. I'm guilty more than most.

But sometimes I worry that the proliferation of negative feedback might paint a dire picture for curious outsiders. That it could be as much of a threat to the population as faulty mechanics. I apologise, but then again I'm not likely to stop making suggestions because I'm not likely to stop playing.